Rudder trim

Today I was flying in some light rain in my Arrow. I noticed the rain was streaming across my windshield on an angle indicating the nose was left of center. I adjusted the rudder trim until the rain tracked parallel to the windshield center post on both sides, i.e., adding more right rudder. After the adjustment the ball was displaced from center by about half the ball's diameter.

I am sure the TC is not that far off from level. In fact the ball is centered when sitting on the ground. My question is what else could be going on that could affect the yaw trim?

Thank you.

Comments

  • Maybe the rain pattern was altered by the slipstream.

    I must admit, I've never heard of trimming by this method.
  • Jim, the best method to adjust "the ball" in the level position is to get the plane on level ground (or as close as possible to level) take a 6 foot level that they sell at Harbor freight tools for about 15.00 and place it under the plane paraelle with the wings. The Level will give you a good indication if the ground is true level. Now, make sure that the main tire pressure in both tires are correct. (if not correct, ad air as needed) Look at the level and see where the ball is. Then look at the gauge in the plane and see where the bubble is. If the instrument needs adjusting, simply remove the plastic instrument cover (usually 7 screws and all the instruments will be exposed) loosen (do not remove) the four screws that hold the instrument in place. Slightly push one of the corners to adjust the ball in the center of the gauge. Re tighten the screws and put the plastic cover back in place. Takes about 20 minutes to do the entire job. Remember, just cause the ball is in the center on the ground does not mean that the plane is level. It will depend on the terrain. If the ball is centered on the instrument, but the floor has a slope, that would be indicative that the the gauge, although shows center ball, is not actually level. Have an A&P help you with this. Its a simple fix to make sure your plane flying true level. I
  • Gliders will use a piece of yarn taped to the windscreen much the same way.
  • We use the same yarn on Helicopters!
  • A different direction on the same topic.

    Have hunted around for a "Takeoff Setting" for the rudder trim on my Arrow. Narrowed it down to turning the trim knob full right then applying 6-7 twists left. That seems to set it up nicely for a Vy initial climb. A few more left twists are added when transitioning to cruise climb.

    Anybody else using a similar, or dissimilar, method?
  • 78TARROW: On my Arrow, I leave the trim setting where it was after cruise flight and landing. Before T/O I give the wheel about 3 turns CW (not full 360's but normal twist of my hand turns), When I stabilize my climb I then adjust the trim as necessary to center the ball. Usually the 3 turns yields a centered ball so any adjustments in climb are minor.

    From other comments - I did not take into account the affect of the prop wash on the air flow over the windshield. I will level the TC as suggested by Aviation Law.

    Thanks for the comments. They were all useful.
    Jim
  • Aviation L's procedure has a few extra steps. It doesn't matter if the ground is level or what the tire pressure is. Using the capenter's level across the plane as a reference parallel to the span, level the plane with a pair of Cherokee jacks (the jacks will hold the plane level and keep it from shifting as you are moving about inside). Then, follow AL's procedure for shifting the instrument.
  • Jim Wells Wrote:
    > 78TARROW: On my Arrow, I leave the trim setting
    > where it was after cruise flight and landing.

    I can't think of a better place to leave it on a single.
  • Leigh Wrote:
    > I suppose that each pilot has their own way to
    > adjust the rudder trim but what seems to work for
    > me is to trim for level flight after reaching
    > cruise altitude and with the AP off adjust the
    > rudder trim till the plane flys both straight and
    > level with no tendency to turn with no hands or
    > feet on any controls. As the fuel burns off from
    > one tank there will be a need to re-adjust the
    > rudder trim. Having this trimmmed right does seem
    > to add some speed. BTW, in trimming it I do use
    > my feet to apply the needed rudder pressure to
    > maintain straight flight and then adjust the trim
    > till all pressure is gone from my rudder pedals
    > for this setting.



    This technique is wrong. Rudder trim should not be used to level the wings or to remove any turn "tendency".

    Using rudder trim to compensate for a miss-rigged airplane or poor fuel management is improper technique.

    The ONLY thing rudder trim should be used for is to center the ball.

    PilotKris
  • PK, I agree.
  • Leigh Wrote:
    “As the fuel burns off from one tank there will be a need to re-adjust the rudder trim”


    It’s bad technique to use rudder trim to counteract fuel imbalances (even in Canada).

    The only time it should be necessary to adjust rudder trim is with power and/or airspeed changes.


    eldartford Wrote:
    “While flying under autopilot control you may note that you are holding a heading with the heading bug biased off, left or right. I adjust the rudder trim so as to eliminate the bias. A bias means that the AP is holding an aileron deflection to counteract the rudder. I find that this method gets me a few mph.”


    A "biased" AP heading bug (in heading mode) means your autopilot needs adjusting.

    The ONLY thing you do with rudder trim is center the ball. If the plane still wants to turn, either:

    1. Fuel imbalance
    2. Aileron/Flap rigging is out.
    3. The plane is bent.



    PilotKris
  • ed, you are 1/2 correct (sort of).

    With a Century or King autopilot, flying with the ball not centered will cause the heading bug to be "biased" one way and the AI to be "biased" the other. That would not be the case with an S-Tec autopilot. This also does not work in NAV/LOC or GPSS modes. Solution?

    CENTER THE BALL!

    It works 100% of the time with 100% of the autopilots, in 100% of the modes, no autopilot or even no electricity. It is also faster, more accurate, idiot proof and mirrors how you should be flying the aircraft (i.e.; "step on the ball").


    PilotKris
  • "As the fuel burns off from one tank there will be a need to re-adjust the rudder trim."

    This is lazy technique. Burning fuel causes a wing to be heavy. The answer is to switch tanks, not adjust the rudder trim. The adjustment is on the longitudinal axis, not the vertical axis. Plus it is much easier to flick the fuel selector than to put in trim adjustment, center the pedals, fine tune the trim adjustment and then verify the adjustment with the ball and make sure your heading doesn't change in level flight, only to readjust when the fuel burns down some more.

    That all being said, I've seen more Turn Coordinators that are NOT installed level than are. Start with a level instrument as above.
  • Funny this comes up a student at my flight school insists that he trims the rudder through all phases of flight to keep the ball centered. What the heck? Why not just step on the ball. Usually it takes very little pressure to center up the ball. Are people getting this lazy that they are really going to these lengths?
  • Tony: I used the rudder trim on my Cherokee 180C for the first time last week on a medium-length cross-country, and it was so nice not to have to apply constant rudder pressure during the entire flight. It made for a much more comfortable flight. With stabilator and rudder trim properly set, I (almost) have a poor-man's autopilot. That's the good news.

    Now, here's the bad news. Even though "check rudder trim" was on my pre-landing checklist, I overlooked it. So, I was surprised, when landing in a fairly stiff cross-wind, that I kept drifting unexpectedly to the right even though I thought I was applying the correct amount of aileron and rudder correction. Lesson learned: if you use rudder trim during cruise, be sure it's properly set for landing.
  • What I'm saying (& I think Tony) about the rudder trim is set it for cruise and forget it. Stop touching it every 20 minutes. Use the pedals for T/O, Climb, Descent and Landing. Level out, get up to speed, Fuel on heaviest tank, trim for steady heading with wings level and leave it. Only on the longest cross country flights where fuel burn could affect CG does the rudder trim need adjusting.

    In other news... The "correct" amount of x-wind controls results in the long axis on & pointing down the centerline. It has absolutely nothing to do with rudder trim. If it is set for straight & level cruise, it will be extremely close to straight for landing. Let me be perfectly clear... You DO NOT put in rudder trim to correct for a X-Wind or any other landing. It is all in your feet and hands.
  • Leigh: I'm a relatively new pilot, and a new Cherokee 180C owner, so I don't claim expert status. It seems my usage during cruise, as described above, is exactly what the rudder trim is for. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong.

    Rob: Why is rudder trim stupid if it contributes to a more comfortable flight and eases the workload a little?
  • PropFan Wrote:
    > Leigh: I'm a relatively new pilot, and a new
    > Cherokee 180C owner, so I don't claim expert
    > status. It seems my usage during cruise, as
    > described above, is exactly what the rudder trim
    > is for. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong.

    I really don't think that the slight amount of rudder trim applied to maintain coordinated flight in cruise will contribute to "drifting unexpectedly to the right during final approach."

    My guess is you needed to apply more left wing down to stop your drift off the final approach course from the onset if you slip that far out.
  • Since Cherokee rudder trim is a bungee system and since Cherokee rudder pedals are linked directly to the nosewheel steering linkage, rudder trim settings affect turning tendencies during the ground roll.
  • Rob Wrote:
    > Rudder trim on a single is stupid anyway.


    Rudder trim on a twin is stupid unless you have one caged. Then it's your best friend. Otherwise its not enough of a issue. I normally rest my feet on the rudders and it seems with just a little minute pressure I can keep it fairly centered. What's a 1/4 of a ball deflection going to do anyways? Slow me down a knot or two? No worries people drop thousands on speed mods to gain what 5-7 knots. Holy cow you saved like 5 mins on a really long flight.
  • Rob Wrote:
    > Rudder trim on a single is stupid anyway.


    Spoken by man who's obviously never flown a high performance single....
  • Tony L Wrote:
    >
    > Rudder trim on a twin is stupid unless you have
    > one caged.



    Not so quick there Tony, Fly a twin with non-counterotating engines (like my Aztec) and you'll change your mind. While not needing as much rudder input as a high performance single, it's still subject to all the same asymmetric thrust issues (P-factor, torque) with spiral slipstream not as much an issue.
  • Bonanza is hardly high performance IMO. Fly a PC12 report back to me. The rudder imo isn't even that much of a concern. PK ok I agree with you on the non CR I just didn't notice that much when I flew the 414. When I flew a T210 I actually noticed a need for a lot of rudder when the gear was down climbing out. Once it was up no biggie go on with life.
  • Rob Wrote:
    > ... Spoken by a man who owns a high performance
    > single.


    You sold the M20C and stepped up to a PA32?
  • Tony L Wrote:
    > Fly a PC12 report back to me. The rudder imo isn't even that
    > much of a concern.


    (Been there, done that)

    It isn't a concern because the PC12 has a YawDamper with automatic trim...
  • Yaw damp is not on for take off and landings.
  • Plus it's not fast enough to keep up with large power changes.
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