My plane is gone...

Harley Kleemann

To the paint shop! New paint, new interior. I will post up photos along the way.

When done, it will look like so...

BillCampbell

Great selection.

MikeJJ

Just curious...is the size of the registration number acceptable to the FAA? I recall years ago owners were required to return their 'N' numbers to the larger size?

MikeJJ

Harley, check out FAA advisory circular AC45-2E before your paint shop applies 'N' numbers less than 12 inches (30 cm) high. If you had smaller numbers before, they would have to be returned to 30 cm when the aircraft is repainted.
Nice design by the way!

Harley Kleemann

I called the local FSDO. He told me since my airplane is considered an antique, I can use small numbers.

Scott Sherer

Good to know, Harley. Thanks for sharing that.

MikeJJ

Good to know. What year is your aircraft?

Harley Kleemann

Mike, my Arrow is a 1979 model. The FAA considers any aircraft over 30 years old to be an "antique".

Harley Kleemann

FAR 45.22 - Exhibition, Antique, and Other Aircraft: Special Rules

(a) When display of aircraft nationality and registration marks in accordance with §§45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 would be inconsistent with exhibition of that aircraft, a U.S.-registered aircraft may be operated without displaying those marks anywhere on the aircraft if:

(1) It is operated for the purpose of exhibition, including a motion picture or television production, or an airshow;

(2) Except for practice and test fights necessary for exhibition purposes, it is operated only at the location of the exhibition, between the exhibition locations, and between those locations and the base of operations of the aircraft; and

(3) For each flight in the United States:

(i) It is operated with the prior approval of the Flight Standards District Office, in the case of a flight within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for the takeoff airport, or within 4.4 nautical miles of that airport if it is within Class G airspace; or

(ii) It is operated under a flight plan filed under either §91.153 or §91.169 of this chapter describing the marks it displays, in the case of any other flight.

(b) A small U.S.-registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago or a U.S.-registered aircraft for which an experimental certificate has been issued under §21.191(d) or 21.191(g) for operation as an exhibition aircraft or as an amateur-built aircraft and which has the same external configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago may be operated without displaying marks in accordance with §§45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 if:

(1) It displays in accordance with §45.21(c) marks at least 2 inches high on each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface consisting of the Roman capital letter “N” followed by:

(i) The U.S. registration number of the aircraft; or

(ii) The symbol appropriate to the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft (“C”, standard; “R”, restricted; “L”, limited; or “X”, experimental) followed by the U.S. registration number of the aircraft; and

(2) It displays no other mark that begins with the letter “N” anywhere on the aircraft, unless it is the same mark that is displayed under paragraph (b)(1) of this section.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft under paragraph (a) or (b) of this section—

(1) In an ADIZ or DEWIZ described in Part 99 of this chapter unless it temporarily bears marks in accordance with §§45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33;

(2) In a foreign country unless that country consents to that operation; or

(3) In any operation conducted under Part 121, 133, 135, or 137 of this chapter.

(d) If, due to the configuration of an aircraft, it is impossible for a person to mark it in accordance with §§45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33, he may apply to the Administrator for a different marking procedure.

Austin

Maybe I missed something trying to read that FAR 45.22 but I think it said aircraft 30 plus years old pertained to experimental aircraft only.
Austin

Harley Kleemann

Austin, the key word in that paragraph is the word "OR"...

A small U.S.-registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago or a U.S.-registered aircraft for which an experimental certificate has been issued

Harley Kleemann

FAR 45.29 - Size of Marks

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (f) of this section, each operator of an aircraft shall display marks on the aircraft meeting the size requirements of this section.

(b) Height. Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this part, the nationality and registration marks must be of equal height and on—

(1) Fixed-wing aircraft, must be at least 12 inches high, except that:

(i) An aircraft displaying marks at least 2 inches high before November 1, 1981 and an aircraft manufactured after November 2, 1981, but before January 1, 1983, may display those marks until the aircraft is repainted or the marks are repainted, restored, or changed;

(ii) Marks at least 3 inches high may be displayed on a glider;

(iii) Marks at least 3 inches high may be displayed on an aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (d), §21.191 (g), or §21.191 (i) of this chapter to operate as an exhibition aircraft, an amateur-built aircraft, or a light-sport aircraft when the maximum cruising speed of the aircraft does not exceed 180 knots CAS; and

(iv) Marks may be displayed on an exhibition, antique, or other aircraft in accordance with §45.22.

BillCampbell

Distilling down Harley's post, hopefully the italicized wording conveys the exemption provided by the antique aircraft provision, i.e., more than thirty years old. There is a provision, not discussed here, which I think muddies the interpretation which talks about repainting and compliance. But I think there is a valid exemption argument based on the following regulatory exposition.

§ 45.22 Exhibition, antique, and other aircraft: Special rules.

(b) A small U.S.-registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago … _may be operated without displaying marks in accordance with _§§ 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 if:
_
(1) _It displays in accordance with § 45.21(c) _marks at least 2 inches high on each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface consisting of the Roman capital letter “N” followed by:

(i) The U.S. registration number of the aircraft;

Austin

The way I read it is you still have to have the 12" numbers if you have a standard aircraft in the normal category.
Austin

Harley Kleemann

Well, Brent at the FSDO in Fargo says I can use 2" numbers on my aircraft...

Austin

I suggest you try the AOPA and see what they say.
Austin

Harley Kleemann

So, the AOPA is going to know more than the FAA employees that work at the FSDO? Two FAA guys told me over the phone that any aircraft under 12,500 pounds that is 30 years old or older can have 2" registration numbers. They also sent an email to me stating the same.

I'll take their word for it...

Jmcmanna

If you have it in writing, I’d say you’re golden! In practice, I can’t imagine anyone giving you a hard time for the size of your N number, and if they did, that email will carry some weight. If your due diligence is done, you should be all set.

Scott Sherer

Hi Harley,
I'm sure you're okay, don't sweat it! But I'm always thinking about the ramifications of decisions made. Is an airplane sitting on a ramp with a beautiful new paintjob that makes the airplane look like new and has a small registration number an advertisement for a ramp check? I don't know. Anyway, your plane will look fabulous

Harley Kleemann

Scott, I ain't afraid of no ramp check!!! But, to cover my heinie, I will print off the email from the FSDO and keep it in the aircraft!

BillCampbell

When I posted the edited section above, I noted another section which I read that I think "muddies the water" of regulatory interpretation. The other section discusses requiring twelve inch lettering upon re-painting or registration number changing on an airplane. However, applying a normal statutory construction argument, I concluded the language I posted in edited form was a basis for using the smaller registration numbering. As I stated it makes it at least arguably proper. [Please note: this is not intended to be a legal conclusion nor are my statements intended to be taken as legal advice. No reliance on these statements should be made nor is any attorney-client relationship created by the opining as to the regulatory effect of the provisions posted] As for calling AOPA, unless you talk to John or his daughter, you just get some person on the phone who is not authorized to provide you with a reliable legal opinion, John et al, would do a disclaimer like I did. Even FSDO is only a cover because what one office states may not be the construction another will accept. But the letter certainly helps. In the final analysis, I really don't think that such issue is high, or even on, their list of "gotchas". Only the General Counsel letter is deemed "coin of the realm" and it is subject to judicial disagreement.

Austin

Since you got two FAA guys to say the same thing there may be some merit to it.
Austin

Harley Kleemann

Bill, in 45.29 where it describes aircraft that need 12" numbers, it was dated and issued in 2009. Therefore, at that date, the aircraft described in the following would be less than 30 years old..."An aircraft displaying marks at least 2 inches high before November 1, 1981 and an aircraft manufactured after November 2, 1981, but before January 1, 1983, may display those marks until the aircraft is repainted or the marks are repainted, restored, or changed".

Scott Sherer

Hey Harley,
Sorry you brought the whole damned thing up? lol

Harley Kleemann

Yes, I am!!!

Scott Sherer

OK, so here's a new idea for topic drift and getting off the old topic. With you getting a new paint job... What paint shops has everyone used? We could construct a list of good ones!

BillCampbell

For a different perspective, the "drift" arose out of one members concern that another member not do something which would cause them a regulatory problem. Even if I disagreed with the concern, I find it commendable that there is that level of community in this group. No need to wish it had never been brought up, rather I find appreciation that someone would air their concern and we could find a consensus on whether or not an issue existed.

Harley Kleemann

Scott, I am using VANCO aviation in Hazen, ND. Joe, the owner of said shop, painted ALL the Cessna Caravans for FedEx, and has been flown by FedEx to the Phillipines and Japan to paint some large jets for them. To say his work is perfection would be an understatement. I have been on his waiting list for almost one year!

And, thank you to all of you for looking out for me. I know you all just wanted to make sure I didn't step on my crank with the registration numbers!!

Scott Sherer

Roger that, Harley and Bill!

Austin

I agree with Harley. If you repaint your aircraft (Normal category) The "N" number must be 12" high. I read FAR 45.22. That's the way I intemperate it.
austin

BillCampbell

Austin you owe me a new laptop, I just sprayed coffee all over this one. You meant to write interpret but it came out intemperate which means having or showing a lack of self-control or given to or characterized by excessive indulgence, especially in alcohol. Shades of Norm Crosby.