Airframe hours - How much is too much?

N9091Y

Anyone out there flying a legacy piper with 8000 or more hours?
Are you concerned about that many hours?
Just curious.
Tnx

Scott Sherer

Hi and thanks for writing, Scott. Anywhere around 15,000 hours or so is about it for our Pipers according to everything that I've read in my lifetime. However, there are a couple of caveats to that. Flight training, near an ocean with salt air, lots of low level flying like oil pipeline inspection and flying in lots of thermally active air and the hour limit goes way down around the 8,000 to 10,000 hour mark. That's why we tell people to avoid training airplanes.

N9091Y

Well, I’m a bit too late for that! It’s been a trainer it’s whole life.

In the meantime, I plan on staying up on corrosion, spars, AD’s, safety bulletins and anything else I can find.
It’s hangared and gently flown..
Smooth air descents, no yanking and banking, etc.
Appreciate the advice as always. I hope the other members are getting some benefit from my newbie questions.👍

Scott Sherer

No need to be anything more than concerned. You have the right attitude and your plane will last forever. Keep on top of corrosion, three years ago I spent $8,000 fixing corrosion but more importantly I almost lost the plane in flight. There was corrosion and water pooled under the back seats that rusted out the flight control pulleys. Not good. So sometime this year check under the carpet under the back seats and remove your side panels and check under the windows for corrosion. You can do the check of the whole cabin in about an hour. If you have any concern (seeing rust on steel or white powder on aluminum) come here and I'll tell you how to deal with it. No worries, though. It's all easy to do.

airslo

Good morning Scott. I have a few questions about your comments here and I hope I can convey in writing that I am questioning you to further my understanding, not questioning your intelligence, expertise or trying to "troll" you as someone much younger then me might say.
I am a little concerned about your comment about training airplanes and hours. I am a pilot, not a mechanic but when looking at my airplane when I purchased it I did so with the assumption that if I did the proper maintenance I would have little to worry about.
I have a warrior with 7000hrs on it, and it was a trainer most of its life. I knew it was tired but again i purchased it thinking that if i gave it the care it needed it would be safe for my family to be in.
Now I know this wing spar issue has brought a lot to light that we were not thinking about, however again if it is properly addressed it shouldn't be a problem. (Even though my warrior is not part of the sb i have an appointment in June to get the test done as again this aircraft is for my family). Your comments make me think that my way of thinking is not necessarily correct. Is there more to be worried about? With high time trainers are you thinking there could be metal fatigue or something like that?
Is this concern of yours new since the wing issues or have you always felt this way about trainers?

After putting a new engine on my aircraft I am considering selling it.

Thanks for your input.

SLO

Scott Sherer

Hi and thanks for writing. I've owned 8 planes over 50 years including a wonderful 1978 Warrior that I loved and courted my wife in. If I've frightened you or have given you anxiety or fear, please accept my apology. I certainly didn't mean to. Regarding your comment about "as long as i do maintenance". You are correct. There is no part that can't be replaced on our airplanes. Three years ago it cost me $8,000 to fix floor and rudder spar corrosion. The end result is that those areas of the plane are like new again. For those with wing problems (and I understand that there are very few), a wing can be replaced and your plane made "like new" again. No worries. It's just that maintenance costs alot of money. If you're prepared for that, then there are no issues.
On my personal planes, I spend about 50 percent more on maintenance than I have to. I fly in my plane alot and I get piece of mind from replacing parts that look worn even if they aren't worn out yet. I just replaced all of the springs on my Arrow's landing gear. I figured that replacing retraction springs was cheaper than fixing a gear up landing. My mechanic's comment was "you're writing the checks". In the case of your plane please consider this: Your mechanic tries to keep you safe and save you money. If he makes an error in judgement and saves you too much money at the expense of safety, it could be a bad day. He means well and is probably very good but he's just human. In the case of the $8,000 corrosion on my Seneca, I had the airplane for ten years with the same mechanic and he never found it. I changed shops and they found it immediately.
Just be careful and don't skimp on maintenance. You'll be alright.

airslo

thanks so much Scott...
Yes like you I dont skimp on mx....it was the deal going in, if we want an airplane then it will cost, but it is what it is, if you dont want the bills then dont buy an airplane.
So, I know nothing is 100 percent, but you agree then that no matter what the flight time is, if you do all of the mx that is needed, then your safety threshold should remain consistent with a low time airplane correct?

Scott Sherer

Roger that. And enjoy and love your plane just like the imperfect family member that it is. Unconditional love, lol.

N9091Y

Hi guys-
Since I started the thread about my high time arrow, I’ll weigh in.
I’ve been told that there really are high time PA28’s out there being happily and SAFELY flown by flight schools as well as individuals.

Some have 10,000 +
12,000 hour airframes
Yes, it’s true plenty of flight schools are moving to
Glass cockpit pa28s or Cirrus’,l but there are probably more flight schools who are barely making it (especially now) and they are making due with high time arrows and warriors, and keeping them flying with mandatory 1O0 hour inspections.

My A& P agrees with Scott, that a well maintained high time airframe is safe, provided it is regularly checked for corrosion and other gotchas common to legacy birds. I’m told that once the wing spar eddy current test is passed, the rest is just being vigilant.

Moment of truth..
To be honest , do I wish my new to me Arrow has less than 8000 hours? Yes.
I’m still a bit concerned, but i am trusting what Scott and my A&P are saying.

I try to avoid too much speed in the bumps, just to be on the safe side. In rough air I can’t help but wonder about metal fatigue.. My mind goes there every time I git my head on the ceiling.

I just have to try not to worry too much, or I will find myself making excuses not to fly that day.

I don’t want to be afraid of my airplane. It has safely carried multiple owners for years. I have to work herd to make sure that doesn’t happen.
Thanks for listening..

Thanks
Scott and the Group

Scott Sherer

Two thumbs up!

airslo

Yea thats how i feel. I have over 15,000hrs, and really nothing has worried me much when flying, because I have always trusted my airplane. I dont want to start not trusting my airplane.

N9091Y

Arsli- We seem to be in the same place mentally.
I’ve got over 5000 hours, and the trust thing takes time I think.
I’ll do a lot of vfr for a while and gradually some soft enroute ifr with high bases..below me..
After that I will trust my old gal a bit more I think...After that .. we shall see..

N9091Y

Airslo.. sorry. Crappy typist..

griff390

2 thumbs up from me also. Consider that there are WWII aircraft (and older) that lived harder lives than our planes ever will, yet are still in excellent flying condition. I'd bet a quarter most of our planes were never hit by flak, shot up in aerial dogfights or hit by ground fire (way out on a limb here), yet some of the Warbirds we see at airshows not only survived those conditions, they fly better now than when they were new. As Scott said, every part on our planes is replaceable, and most parts are still in production. Fly and enjoy it as long as you can! Clear prop!

N9091Y

Like Scott sez -our old girls may not perfect ( for the Cirrus drivers out there) and they may have a few quirks that we’ve learned to accommodate to-
But they’re relatively inexpensive to acquire and hopefully won’t break the bank while taking us on
our “excellent adventures”.😀

Scott Sherer

And that, my friends, is the whole point! Stay healthy, stay safe, fly alot!

spikecarter

Well, where to start. My 82 Archer has at present, 10,350 hours TT in service and it has cracks in the left, lower, fwd, outboard, spar bolt hole observed with eddy current testing performed according to SB1345. All the other potentially suspect bolt holes are clear. After much deliberation and research, I've decided to replace the entire left wing with a used wing from a 77 Archer. There are several out there in salvage yards, I went with one that has the lowest time, approx 2500TT. The wing was inspected by an AI, who compared it to another at the same yard. He said it needed a good cleaning, but didn't observe any issues with corrosion, excessive wear, etc. The other had some damage to the skin on the leading edge and underside and 7600 hrs TT. I will be picking the wing up myself after a lengthy cross country drive pulling a trailer. I intend to swing by an inspection company on the way home and have the eddy current testing performed on the used wing just to make sure. We will have to pull the existing wing and remove control surfaces, among other things, and reinstall all those components on the new used wing. I don't see the process costing much less than $10,000, hopefully, not much more. However, the alternatives to this were to put a new spar in the old wing, $15-$20K and I'd have a spar with zero hours and another with 10,350 hrs not to mention the rest of the airframe, and an engine with 2200 hr TSOH. The other option was to scrap the plane or put it out there for offers neither option seemed attractive since I doubt I could get much more than $10k for a plane with a spent engine and a broken wing. I don't plan to use this airplane for extensive new pilot training, maybe my son's can learn in it, but it won't ever see the abuse of a normal training plane, again. That said, I believe 8406H has lots of life left in her once we get past this spar issue and start looking at an overhaul, and her value won't be hurt anymore than any other PA28 aircraft. Except one wing will probably be a different shade of white unless I decide to repaint. I'll make that call after I see the new/old wing. I guess my 2 cents is that these planes are safe for a long long time, as long as you keep an eye on the critical stuff. Like spars. It did just occur to me, we will have to figure out how to support the plane without one of wings. Surely, there must be a trick to that?

mc

Scott Sherer

MC, thanks for writing. Your plan is logical and sound. You'll have that plane for decades to come with a 2500 hour wing. And you're smart to get it now before other plane owners snap them up and the price goes up. $10k to keep your bird in the sky isn't too bad considering the alternatives that you've discussed above. Nice job!