Help Starting PA-28-140 with Lycoming O-320-E2A

CGantz

This is embarrassing for me to admit, but I have a devil of a time starting my engine. I'm talking about the first start of the day, usually in the am. The plane lives in coastal California (temperate climate), has a new battery and just got out of annual with no engine related issues. I assume the issue is me and my technique and not the plane. My technique is "by the book/manual." Master and fuel pump on, mixture rich, throttle open 1/4" (measured at bottom), two strokes of the primer then lock and engage starter. It usually sounds like it wants to catch, and when I hear that I disengage the starter. Most often it doesn't catch. I'll then try again, usually with another shot from the primer. If it doesn't start after that, I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do. I'm curious what the consensus technique is for owners of this engine. If the engine doesn't start right up, what is your fallback? Your thoughts would be appreciated! Thanks and stay well out there.

Scott Sherer

Hi Clay,
Thanks for writing. Here are my recommendations:
1. Increase the amount of priming you do from 2 to 4 and then 6.
2. Check to see if you have aluminum starter cables. Bogert copper cables might be worth the money.
3. I'm wondering if you my have a magneto issue, too. But start with priming.
We'll find it but it might take a little trial and error. On a personal note, I was tired of hot starts over a lunch break and I put in an electric ignition system. Not my engine always starts on 2 blade turns. Always.
Let me know how you make out and I'm sure you'll here from other Piper members on our forum, too.

CGantz

Thanks, Scott. When you say "electric ignition system" are you referring to something like a Surefly impulse coupled magneto replacement? Also, others have suggested "pumping" or cycling the throttle while cranking. Does that make sense?

Jmcmanna

Another technique I have used in the past is to give one shot of primer while you’re cranking. There was a C150 I used to fly that would not start without priming and cranking at the same time.

Scott Sherer

Hi Clay,
Yes, exactly. Both Surefly and Electroair. We have an Arrow owner in Iowa, Paul Novak, that has just put in a Surefly and he's writing an article for our magazine on it. I just installed an Electroair and I just finished an article for Pipers magazine. So we're covering both of them. They both come highly recommended from both Paul and myself for either vendor.

CGantz

So, my friendly neighborhood mechanic took pity on me and came out to watch/troubleshoot my attempt to start the plan. There is good news and bad news. The good news is that I apparently wasn't doing anything wrong in terms of my starting methodology. He almost immediately said "there is something not right w/ the airplane." Upon his closer inspection, the bad news is "the mag is apparently not picking up after the impulse kicks out." Since both mags are close to 500 hours, they'll go off to the repair center for inspection/repair. Thanks everyone for the advice and I will implement when the mechanical problem is fixed. Looking forward to reading Paul Novak's article.

Scott Sherer

Let me know how it works out.

Bruce@TN

do not waste the money on the repair _had the same problem and chased many things thinking it was fuel, tried 2 different mags no joy out of frustration I put the Surfire mag on and it starts every time for the cost of 2 overhaus it will pay for itself. it even starts colt 45 to 55 with 3 pumps of the throttle and cold starts are no problem well worth the money.

johnsouthworth

The 2 mags need to be done anyway for the 500hr, do an overhaul. You will be lucky to need another overhaul in 10 years. then you will be looking at a full engine probably anyway. I am running 2 x TIO 540s on condition and all fine now at 100 hrs a year, hoping for 10 years then hoping for an MU=2 before that.

Scott Sherer

A MU2 is an awesome plane. Get lots and lots of training and lots and lots of life insurance lol

johnsouthworth

Scott, no need for life insurance. Once you are down you are down.

Jmcmanna

My wife would beg to differ on the need for life insurance

MikeJJ

Check your SPARK plugs and AIR filter! The two other things besides FUEL you need to get an engine running

Check your plugs and plug wires along with everything else.

Regards,

Mike

flycoopfly

I have this exact same aircraft and engine model. I use 4 pumps of the primer for a cold start, and that has been working well. I concur and think that 2 pumps of the primer is too few.

griff390

Flycoop;

Agree, my engine loves 4 shots of primer when cold, and will fire off in 3 blades or so. Drives my IA a bit nuts, he says I'm over-priming which washes oil off the cylinder walls. We debated, and ultimately I let him try his way when my engine was cold. Grind, grind, grind. Cool off. Grind, grind, grind, cool off. Then watched him add a few more shots of prime and it fired immediately. I'm sure WWIII could be fought over which method is better/worse for your engine. Personally, I feel that getting the engine running and building oil pressure immediately induces less wear than 20 to 30 cumulative seconds of grinding with no oil pressure. Your mileage may vary, but my last engine went 2,200 hrs, so I'm sticking with what works.

Scott Sherer

Hi Griff,

I concur totally. Mechanics don't fly your plane, you do. Only you know what works best.
Stay healthy.

TMcCArcher

As others have said 4-5 shots of prime for cold. I never had any trouble with cold starts. However, I had a long time hot start issue. I installed a new battery, Skytec starter, new spark plugs, replaced intake hoses and gaskets, replaced the carburetor, and then after hearing that the coil in the magnetos begin to fail when hot first I finally had the left mag overhauled. I had considered going with the Surefly but didn't since they were just out and not proven in the field yet. The rebuilt mag made all the difference. Hot start issue solved. I also have discovered that to create the proper suction in the carb you only need to crack open the throttle. Opening the throttle too much does not create enough suction to draw fuel through the idle jet. Looking into the carb when off the plane you would be surprised how open the throttle throat is with a small amount of movement. I have the throttle quadrant and not the push pull knob type. I was looking at 1/2" movement at the quadrant instead of the amount of the movement of the handle. A fellow pilot pointed out the big difference in the advancement of the throttle.
It was a long process to get to my solution but I did learn a lot about the plane and it works great now.
Keep us posted on your solution.
TMcC

griff390

Change of plan. My IA made a believer out of me a couple months ago. On a cold engine, I still give 4 shots of primer, and within 2-3 blades, the engine is running.

On a warm engine, it's electric fuel pump on, mixture rich (I'm in the Midwest), NO PRIMER, throttle between idle and maybe 1/8 inch open, and crank. Within 5-6 blades the engine is running. The gauge shows oil pressure while cranking and prior to the engine catching.

TMcCArcher is correct, if the throttle is open too much, there is not enough vacuum to draw fuel through the idle mixture circuit. It's almost better to have the throttle closed (idle), or very close to it. No primer means oil is not washed off the cylinder walls and better engine longevity. I learned something new, and have embraced a new method of engine start.

Ray McNaught

My archer loves to start... cold or hot. I used to over prime it with 3 shots and finally figured out it preferred 1 cold, none hot, throttle closed. This was before Surefly. After Surefly it starts about the same priming wise but with fewer blades. On a rare occasion, I give it a blip of throttle if it hasn't started in 3-4 blades, and off it goes.
Closed throttle also has the advantage of starting the cold engine at low RPM for less wear.