Contemplating DFW area to Reno in my Piper Warrior II - Looking for input & advice
Hi all:
As the title suggests I am looking into the practicality of safely traveling west from the DFW area (McKinney, TX) to Reno on the 28th of July plus of minus a few days. The probability of good weather along the route will certainly be critical prior to my departure. My normal missions are 200-300 NM and over relatively flat terrain that rises to 2500 feet MSL or less. I have never flown west unless it was in the comfort of commercial flight at 30K or above. I am looking for advice from those who may have done this in the past with a Cherokee of some stripe and/or operate somewhere along this mountainous route in a normally aspirated plane. Here is a rough outline of my thoughts and important factors for your consideration:
o The flight will certainly not be a direct route as some of the terrain would come up to meet the 13K service
ceiling of my PA-28-161 Warrior.
o I am NOT instrument rated so this would be a VFR trip and I will use flight following the entire way.
o Navigational instruments besides the six pack in the cockpit are:
- Newly installed Avidyne IDF440 (for future instrument training – learning more everyday about the
440)
- TruTrak Auto Pilot
- iFly GPS (I am very familiar with this tool and therefore have a backup nav aid)
o I have ordered a copy of Mountain Flying by Sparky Imeson off eBay.
o I weight 160lbs and there is a 50% chance that my co-owner will accompany me who is 200lbs. We will pack
light.
o I will have oxygen on board.
o I know that calculating density altitude along the way will be very important and intend to do so. Fuel load
will be adjusted accordingly.
o My rough flight plan keeps me below the service ceiling of 13K and skirts most MOAs/restrict airspace as
follows:
- T31 (McKinney, TX Aero Country) 511 NM @ 280 deg (one fuel stop)
- BRG (Belen RGNL KBRG south of Albuquerque, NM International) 537 NM @ 287 deg (one fuel stop)
- Would have to traverse upper finger of Grand Canyon per Grand Canyon VFR Aeronautical Chart /
Product ID: VFRGC (need to study)
- KTPH (Tonopah TPH) – spend the night
- Next Day KTPH to KRTS (Reno Stead, NV / Stead) 162 NM 295 deg
If there is a place along the way where there is some good mountain flying instruction, I would certainly plan for the stop and the time. While I am attempting to join others 7/28-ish though 8/2-ish – I am not pressed for time on either end. If conditions are not favorable, I will return, park the plane, rent a car, stay put or some other conservative alternative. This is an adventure flight for fun. Any insight and advice you all might have for a successful, fun and safe flight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, and I look forward to your comments.
Chris Hodde
N47673
Comments
Hi Chris,
Sounds like a fun flight. I would first fly locally up to at least 10K and get a feel for how the plane handles.
I would also suggest flying T31, KELP, KCGZ, KHII, KRTS and adjust to follow valleys and avoid terrain. If you fly early in the morning you will avoid most of the heat. I would bring O2 along and use it. Also plenty of water. If you are comfortable at 10k there are a number of options and I see no issue. With some careful planning lower might be possible too.
I would plan for no more than 3 hr legs and keep in mind headwinds.
The route I outlined is longer but the terrain is more favorable. Could do it in 2 days but I would plan on 3. Would be faster going back.
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
Chris,
First off, I'll second what Eric said, "This sounds like a very fun flight." You should definitely do it!
Back in the mid-90s, and a few weeks short of my IFR check ride, I arranged to buy a plane out in Independence KS, and fly it back solo to Boston. At almost 1200 NM, this was the longest trip I'd made in my flying career by at least a factor of three.
My CFI gave me the same advice (he claimed) he'd give a 20K hour ATP, "Think about how this flight is different from your normal mission, and based upon your and your equipment's skill set, what outcomes worry you the most." Three major ones came to mind:
Flight planning came down to: highlighting all the SUAs on my sectionals, and carrying a pile of ASRS forms. :-) Breaking the trip into 300NM/3hr segments like Eric suggested, and using all the enroute GA airports as the waypoints. Turned out that throughout the flight you were never more than 10 minutes from a suitable landing spot - a good hedge against deteriorating weather or mechanical problems. These were all programmed in advance into the KLN89, which was state-of-the-art at the time. It would have been nice if the '89 could warn of SUAs, too, but that would take a couple more generations. Finally, I just waited for a four-day stretch with a big H on the prog charts, hopped on Southwest, and began the adventure.
Good luck, and take lots of pictures!
Bob
Density altitude is no joke out west. I know it’s hot in TX too, but as the elevation increases, you must be aware of it along your route.
I’m in Las Vegas, 2,500 MSL and it’s common to have a 6,500 DA in the summer. We are in a valley with mountain peaks up to 12k, so weaving through passes and around the tall stuff is required on every flight.
Reno is 4,400’ with a DA of 7,800 as I write this in the heat of the day.
Make sure to consider DA, your climb performance at that Density Altitude, and what AGL that gives you within your service ceiling. You’ll need to follow a route that provides the maximum mountain clearance.
Fly on one side of valleys so you have room to turn around if you need to. Cross ridges at a 45 degree angle and watch for mountain waves during any wind over 20 knots or so. Those waves both lift and drive you down, and can over power your climb capability if your near your service ceiling.
I also agree with others to fly early mornings when the winds are calm, temps lower and turbulence light.
Use O2, remember to add the difference in field elevation to DA to your altitude when deciding when to put on O2. Example from above: 2,500 field, DA 6,500 adds 4K to my altitude before I take off. So if I climb to 10,500 by body is getting O2 like I’m at 14,500 (and so is my plane from a performance standpoint) So don’t be afraid to break it out at lower altitudes.
Also, using the 4K DA delta as an example, with a 13k service ceiling, you wouldn’t see anything over 9k before you ran out of climb.
Water up, sip it regularly as every breath you take out hear exhales water. We have a 4% humidity on the ground, so it’s super dry and easy to get dehydrated.
I fly a Cherokee 235 with constant speed prop and 16.5k ceiling, but the flight schools fly 160’s & 180’s around here all the time.
I’m flying up to Lake Tahoe from Las Vegas on 7/28 and will be doing the same as you, dodging heat, Restricted Areas, active MOAs and big mountains along the way.
Dave
N9394W
KHND
The morning is absolutely your friend. Best temp, best winds, smooth air. The evening is not as it is usually still hot. Night flight on much of that route is essentially IFR too with often no lights on the ground.
Dave's airport in Henderson is a good example of a challenging runway at night as the approach is usually from west and you are pushed down by the airspace of LAS into the high terrain west of the field which will seem even higher at night with terrain alarms going off...
If you look at the charts there is a part where you need to dip below 5000 at the edge of 3000 ft terrain 4 miles from the field. Descending at night < 2000 ft to terrain is not ideal for a first arrival to HND! It is very doable but not very comfortable...
O2 is great on long trips at any altitude.
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
Eric, Dave & Bob - Your respective insights are gold! Thanks for much for your thoughtful replies!
Chris I live and Fly in New Mexico. Mostly based out of KAEG (just north of KBRG)
Sorry for this being long. Hope it helps.
When I got my PP back in the mid 90's I flew from KRHV (San Jose Calif area) to KABQ in a Archer.
It was summer and my first, all by myself pilot as a real pilot, log XC. No instructor, No safety net of the local area that I trained in etc.!! I was coming out to see my parents and show my certificate to my dad, who is also a pilot.
The trip was bumpy in the midday and afternoon. I mean BUMPY over southern Calif, Needles, Flagstaff, Winslow, Grants, etc. BUMPY. I had a segment at night and it was smooth as glass. I learned how people could get disoriented at night out in the desert!
I have since flown that route many times. Once we had an Arrow and three of us on board. All heading to OSH for the flyin. I wanted to be wheels up by 7am. Others were slow. We didn't get wheels up until closer to 10:30. I learned more about Density Altitude on that flight. We departed RWY 8 at KABQ, nice 8-10k headwind and a nice long rwy. We could not climb out of ground effect until I raised the gear. In hindsight I should have rejected the departure and waited until the next day. We didn't have more than about 200ft/ min in climb. Did a series of shallow turns along the Rio Grande Valley and slowly, I do mean slowly climbed north towards Santa Fe and then cut over to Las Vegas, NM. We didn't have the performance, and I was still a newbie pilot. We lived, no bent metal.
Two weeks ago I flew a C172 from KAEG up to KSKX (Taos). Lovely morning flight. The day before I wanted to go, but when I calculated DA at Taos it was projecting to be more than 9400ft by the time I would arrive. Yikes!!
I can't stress enough the importance of checking density altitude and running the numbers in your POH, and with what you know about how YOUR airplane performs and how you as a pilot perform.
You will need more runway!! Climbs will be slower, less margin for climb if you get into sink.
You should really have a "abort take off" location calculated for each runway you use. If you aren't at XX airspeed by that point then abort and sort out why you aren't. Acceleration will be much slower
As density altitude increases, available horsepower and effective lift decrease; therefore available aircraft performance decreases
Really know your engines leaning procedures. I would check not only the POH but the engine manufacture's own data manuals. Watch your temps!!
Don't take off at full gross!! If you have to, then do it EARLY (think Oh Dark Thirty early) in the morning.
Landings will be different. Remember that if you have to go around, your aircraft will be SLOWER at responding, slower at acceleration when you push the power up. So make sure you don't get behind her!!
Carry WATER. Drink WATER. If you fly a 300 mile leg and get out of the airplane and aren't rushing to the head, you are NOT drinking enough. Dehydration is a bitch. Dry air will suck it out of you. Higher altitude will suck the water out of you. DRINK WATER
. I get a headache on the rear left of my head if I am starting to dehydrate. It takes about 2 hours to go away and some serious water drinking. You don't want that when trying to land!!
Sun screen is probably a really good idea. Wear cloths that will help wick the sweat away from you. Have a small towel hand incase you get a sweaty head, you can wipe off before that salty sweat runs into your eyes on final !
Have some survival gear. Something to shade you from the sun, a couple of gallons of water, not in cheap plastic bottles, some that will survive an off-field landing. Have a signal mirror, they don't need to be charged. I use a fly fisherman vest and keep my cell phone in the front pocket. I figure its close to me and I can get it if I'm toss from the airplane. I also have a knife that will cut my seatbelt webbing in a jiffy, that is in my other buttoned vest pocket.
items recommended from a recent NM Pilots Assoc mountain training class.
Flight plan. Flight following
Container. 1st aid kit
Black plastic bag(s). Space blanket(s)
Duct tape. Compass
Fire starter(s). Signal device(s)
Whistle. Knife/multi-tool
Flashlight. Parachute cord
Water purifier. Gloves
“SPOT”. Insect repellant
Juan Browne, Blancoliro channel on youtube (good guy, good channel to watch) has this little segment about survival stuff and a mirror
I ALWAYS carry my ICOM portable Nav/Com radio. It will do VOR and has a CDI on the screen. It is also a Wx radio and a aviation COM radio. Fully charged and ready to go. If I lost comms on the panel I have a chance of raising another AC on frequency and having them relay for me.
Speaking of COMM's I also try to always guard 121.5 and have it in the background on the audio panel. That way if I hear a beep beep beep I can alert ATC.
Please FILE A FLIGHT PLAN. Open and CLOSE IT. Always ask for VFR flight following. 98% of the time you will get flight following. Its far easier to push the TX button on the yoke than fumble for "what frequency should I try and raise help on " Remember that panic and emergencies cloud the brain.
O2 is a really good idea! CVS pharmacy has these little portable O2 breathers. Sporties does as well, or you can use a portable O2 system. I'm personally on O2 if I'm above 10K for more than 30 minutes. I don't smoke and I am acclimated to this region, and I still use O2. I also have a O2 meter that you stick your finger into and it tells me my O2 levels. Another widget is a CO sensor. Not one of those cheep paper things you stick to the panel. This is a real multi-gas sensor. Watch for CO poisoning!!!
RIGHT NOW YOU SHOULD DRINK SOME WATER. This is such a long post that you are dehydrated
Weather patterns here.. Nice in the early morning. By mid day we start to get good build-ups and by mid afternoon to early evening they over develop and then dump out a decent storm. Down drafts are real and can be more than many GA planes can handle. Always have an escape route. Don't cross ridges at 90 degrees, cross them at 45 degrees so you can turn away and have less turn if you have to.
Know your clouds. Lenny's are a great sign of mountain wave. What goes up must come down.
Belen is a nice airport. Lots of flight training in that area, especially in the morning.
Skydiving activity has been pretty good lately as well. So watch out for them.
We have been having a bunch of "dust devils" lately. They are no fun on short final. Just ask the Biz Jet that lost a wing tip a few weeks ago on final at KAEG. A dust devil came up and rolled the wing down and scrape.......
Belen has a slightly unusual taxi for one of the runways. You have to back-taxi even though it looks like there is a taxi way. Just double check your airport diagrams. Belen sits up on a mesa. So the wind will be a bit different than in the Rio Grande Valley.
Watch for national heritage spaces, national park spaces and other such things. The charts will say "Pilots are Requested to avoid....." My advice is that you should read the chart to say "Pilots are Required to avoid....."
I would do shorter legs and plan an extra day. I would also invest in a Garmin GDL 52 or similar and XM weather along with foreflight or similar that way you can see weather in near real time while enroute. Yeah it a few bucks, but seeing first hand were that red or yellow cell is, is well priceless!! The ability to see traffic is also pretty darn cool.
Even with all the electronic goop we now have, I still fold my charts and draw on them, mark with high lighter and such. They don't need batteries!
Keep a flight log, keep good time, mark off on the paper chart as you progress along your route.
Have extra pens or pencils, have extra sunglasses (non-polarized),
Have a snack at the ready along with WATER!! Snack up, water up before you start your approach.
Make sure you have plenty of extra batteries for headsets, flashlights, etc. Sporties has these plastic glow in the dark AA, 9V and AAA holders. Pretty cool you can find them at night!
Carry several flash lights. At least two of them should be RED and WHITE. You want one to have a good powerful beam so you can preflight in the EARLY MORNING before the sun is up.
Fly VOR's and/or airport to airport. You will have plenty of options in case of emergencies.
For me, I file a FAA flight plan, and I also file one with my wife. I always have someone that knows where I was going to and from. and I always let them know when I arrive and depart.
Take pictures. Breathe, relax, HAVE FUN.
If you feel like stopping at KAEG and give me 1 day notice, I'd be happy to meet ya and say howdie.
There is a restaurant at KAEG that is open Wednesday thru Sunday. She makes pretty darn good food. Or I'd be happy to drive you in to town and we could have lunch..... The FBO at KAEG fuel is a bit pricey. KAEG is a Class D towered airport.
Please remember Water, Density Altitude, proper mixture settings, fly in the morning, always have an out!!! Remember to keep flying the airplane.....
Cheers
John Brown
CP-AMEL-IA
random faa letters that say I'm still learning about flying
I'm late to the party as the flight is probably over by now, but I thought I'd post this anyway.
John, when will this book be available on Amazon? Haha! Lots of good advice above and I enjoyed reading it.
JB mentioned proper mixture setting, but I didn't notice a mention of leaning for takeoff at high altitude and high DA airports. Check your aircraft handbook for the correct leaning procedure for takeoff in your warrior. High altitudes and high DA is mother nature's trifecta of subtle pilot killers. The thin air not only gives the engine less dense air/oxygen to breath and make fire with (read Horsepower), but the propeller has less dense air to bite into to create thrust and the wings have less dense air to create lift with. Consequently, when all these things add together airplane performance drops off much faster than you would think. Then add to all this the urge to follow what you have learned flying at lower altitudes and stuff the mixture full rich for takeoff and yes, landing too, and you begin to see why high altitude/DA is deceptively problematic. On approach, you can go full rich and all will be fine until you try to do a go around!
Not long after getting my PPL in 83, I got checked out in the Aero club's Arrow 4 and promptly took off for my first epic cross country from KMCC in Sacramento to KTIC in OK city! Yes, in hindsight a little too ambitious for my level of experience at the time, but what an incredible learning experience it was.
Something I thought was helpful was pre-calculating the maximum temperature (and DA) at each airport elevation I planned to stop at that would yield a safe takeoff with full fuel. Thinking if the temps were within 5 degrees I would re-run the takeoff performance figures and adjust accordingly. The temps at each location were all well below my calculations so I was able to refill to full fuel each time. Had the temps been excessive I would have filled to the tabs and possibly added another stop to the plan. After all the only time you have too much fuel is when you are too heavy to climb out or on fire!
I made it to KTIC in 1 day (11 or so hours on the hobbs), landing well into the night. Again a bit too ambitious! On the return I spent the night in KGUP and could have made the rest of the trip to Sacramento the following day except it was so windy (not forcast) and turbulent on the last leg into Tonopah, KTPH, that I spent the night there also, not wanting to risk mountain wave over the Sierras, among other stress risers of the trip!
Warm/hot weather turbulence is no joke, I had the seat adjusted all the way to the bottom with the seat belt as tight as I could get it and still was banging my head on the roof! Also on that leg from GUP to TPH the magnetic compass shook loose a calibration magnet internally, the VOR the autopilot was coupled to decided to go belly up without any warning, and my ground references had become obscured because of high winds and blowing dust like I was IFR on top! Since the AP was following a dead and centered VOR needle and I had lost my ground reference I was blown off course and became shadowed behind terrain out of radio contact with Tonopah radio! After several unanswered calls, another aircraft called me and offered to relay. Being shadowed from Tonopah FSS he could not see me on his radar so he had me squawk 7700 so I would become a bright spot on the radar screen!
Then the troubleshooting began when I was not heading in the direction of the vectors I was being given! He had me double-check the DG against the now defective mag compass... it was right on! After a DF steer we figured the compass had Covid and was useless for navigation! So he had me make various turns and got me back on course to TPH where he flew me directly over the patch at pattern altitude so I could see it... only when looking straight down! Arriving at TPH I was greeted with winds reported as 35 gusting 45 and picked the best runway option. On final approach I was tracking the centerline right through the side window thinking this was going to be interesting to land in!
Fortunately, Aeolus and the 4 Anemoi must have been looking out for me as I kicked out the crab and dropped the upwind wing it was followed by 3 distinct squeaks of the landing gear making the smoothest landing of the whole trip!
In the morning The guy at TPH FSS left a message that he would like to speak with me... Uh ohhh I thought. When I went in to get my weather brief in person and see what he had in store for me he asked if I worked for the FAA... He said he looked up my tail number and found out my aircraft was registered to the US government/USAF and was wondering if I was there testing him or if he was in trouble by almost flying me into restricted airspace near TPH! I told him no I didn't work for the FAA, I was just an Air Force Aero club member trying to get home and thanked him for the great service he provided. So many things had gone wrong and were piling up that it was great he was there and got me straightened out and to the airport.
Yes, I landed with enough fuel that I could have made it to any airport between KTPH and KTRK had the landing attempt not worked out!
Many lessons were learned on this flight...
Get thereitis is real, learned that pushing on to a strange city with a strange airport late at night and very tired. While it worked out it could have gone bad.
When things go wrong often it's just the beginning of multiple things going wrong and they can add up to more than you can handle.
When in doubt call ATC earlier rather than later, they would much rather help you out than call for a search and rescue!
A DF steer is cool... wondering if they still do that in this day of the magic of GPS...
I tried but I don't think my book is as long as JB's ;-)
Chris:
I have flown your route DFW to SantaFe. Then to Grand Canyon and West Coast to San Diego. Your route looks good and avoids mountain passes. Since you live in TX, you know that the headwinds can be very strong. We had to divert to Lubbock because we couldn't make our planned fuel stop at Clovis (CVN) due to excessive headwinds. Even taking off from Lubbock the winds (right down the runway) were greater than any other place I have flown over the years. New Mexico should not be a problem. You will be going close to 4 corners, so you have Monument valley which provides very nice views. The airport at Farmington NM is a nice place to refuel. Your route into NV looks good. (Don't get shot down flying over area 51).
If you have lots of hours flying VFR, then you should have witnessed enough situations where you were flying next to clouds (of course observing FAA cloud avoidance rules), such a fair weather clouds, or near (but not too near) cummulous buildups. Otherwise, I would wait until I had my IFR ticket. When I flew long cross countries, I had my IFR rating. Since you are from TX, I am assuming you are very familiar making Xwind landings. You need to be comfortable handling difficult landings although runways out west will be long due to the higher elevations.
You need to pack your emergency gear on the assumption you have to make an off field landing in the middle of nowhere with no cell phone coverage. And you could be lost for a couple of days. Does your aircraft have the newer 406ELT? You should have that because it provides very accurate and timely location information. You should also have a SPOT handheld or the GARMIN InReach Explorer. Always have plenty of water. Also, you should consider a Little John or other type of portable urinal. You don't have the luxury of just dropping down to that convenient airport 10NM away on your route. You may be flying 100NM over desert or mixed desert and mountainous terrain before the next airport is within reach.
Someone mentioned flight following. I am not sure how good it is today out in the desert west far from major airports. I remember being out of radio contact and/or radar coverage for portions of my route. It may be better now with ADS-B.
Also, someone mentioned your climb performance degrades and this will be apparent during takeoff. You may be used to setting your climb off the runway by pitch (angle) alone. You will bounce back to the runway if you do this at a higher elevation airports. Learn to climb using the performance numbers for your airplane based on takeoff weight and density altitude, not pitch. At higher elevations, you will need to learn how to lean your engine for adequate performance during takeoff. Most books on mountain flying have recommendations on how to do this.
Jack