Entry Speed for Steep Turn Practice?

PropFanPropFan
in General Discussion
What entry speed do you use when practicing steep turns, assuming relativeley calm conditions? I fly a 1965 PA-28-180.

Comments

  • GMGM
    Currently, the PTS specifies that you to establish VA or the mfg.recommended entry speed for the airplane.
  • PaulRPaulR
    eldartford

    With all due respect, someday Ed you will agree with the norm for flying, you didn't say it but when you said "Various Speeds" I concluded you suggested slower and faster of course for steep turns, I know you are aware of what VA is for, and we wouldn't want to encourge people to overload the plane at speeds higher than VA.
  • Dave MatlockDave Matlock
    Everyone is correct! perfect time for a Group hug? (Not a "Grope" hug Leigh!)
  • Dave MatlockDave Matlock
    I was on my way up to L35 (Big Bear, Ca.) several years ago while much of the inland empire was ablaze and got into a strong down-draft while negotiating the "Crag" (The canyon that extends below Big Bear dam). I fly a Cherokee 235, was by myself, less than 1/2 fuel load, no baggage etc. but started loosing altitude at an estimated 3000 fpm immediately. No other option than a steep turn (No other option with a favorable outcome anyway). I had become caught up in the weather system the fire some 20 miles away had created and had very little distance between the plane, the canyon walls, and the canyon floor and very little time to react. Airspeed was somewhat low already because I was climbing when the down-draft hit me and lowering the nose didn't look like a good thing to do under the circumstances either. Just another one of those "who'd have thunk it" and there's no such thing as "wasted time or too much practice" moments. You never know what you may have to do while flying and You may never get a chance to do anything else if that one thing isn't done correctly.
  • PropFanPropFan
    OK, 100 mph it is! :)
  • PropFanPropFan
    I think practicing at various speeds makes sense, but I'm wary of doing so anywhere near Va, which for my plane, is 129 mph, or Vs, which is 67. My AFM shows "flaps up" stall speeds ranging from 71 to 83 mph at bank angles between 40 and 50 degrees. So, it seems that an entry speed of 100-110 mph gives me a good margin of error to avoid a stall on the low end or structural damage on the high end.

    I realize I just answered my own question here, but I'm still learning what my 180C likes and when it wants to bite me, so I remain interested in comments/suggestions.
  • jruhnkejruhnke
    p_rothct Wrote:
    > Part of learning is hearing or reading examples of flights that went wrong, and what the pilot did or
    > did not do to change the outcome, and using that to build on.

    Hear, hear. As a novice pilot, I'm aware there are holes in my knowledge and skills that can only be filled in over time with experience. Understanding some of the bad positions other pilots have found themselves in can help folks like me learn the easy way instead of the hard way.

    I appreciate the stories shared by those who've been in bad situations...especially those who might suffer some embarrassment from the telling.
  • Dave MatlockDave Matlock
    Embarrassed? Not hardly. I always enjoy reading critique made in reference to a once-in-a-lifetime event by someone unfamiliar with the area and writing from the sterile safety of their work desk. Like PF, I imagine some of you aren't familiar with this particular part of Southern California real estate but Google Earth is a good way to take it all in. Start at the bottom of the hill in Mentone and fly north easterly up the canyon towards Big Bear dam to about 34° 14.446'N by 116° 59.287'W at approx 7500 MSL (just below pattern altitude for L35). With the scale at 125 to 150 feet you get a pretty good feel for where the event took place and what it looks like from the air. From that direction I usually fly over the dam at approximately 8000 to 8500 feet, perfectly safe with a comfortable margin. Why a sudden downdraft formed at that location with no indication that conditions were about to change drastically anywhere further down the canyon I'm not qualified to answer but I wasn't the only one caught by surprise. After making a call to one of the flight instructors from Hemet Ryan that was about 10 minutes behind me in a 172 and alerting him to the conditions, I got a call from the airport manager at Big Bear. He had been monitoring radio transmissions from the air attack operation and told me there had been some sort of a "weather anomaly" over the drop site at the same time (which was close to the bottom of Cajon Pass north of San Bernardino) and two planes were making emergency landings. One, a DC 3, had definitely sustained damage and the pilot of the other plane felt certain his plane had been damaged as well. (That plane was returned to service after an inspection but broke apart in flight several months later killing the pilot, a local CFI from Hemet Ryan). No one could or would have foreseen the potential for anything like that but it's proof that when crap happens in an airplane, it can get real bad real fast. We all know how to execute maneuvers that are common during normal flight operations, it's knowing how to execute maneuvers required during unusual or adverse conditions that save our lives. Considering the circumstances, I wasn't embarrassed to post it at all.

    As a sidenote for those that weren't around Southern California during the fires, there was a short-lived mystery regarding 4 x 8 sheets of plywood dropping from the air outside of Baker California. It may have been a mystery to the residents of Baker but the air attack pilots said they had been dodging those sheets of plywood all afternoon long. They were being picked up from construction areas and were shooting past their planes near vertical at speeds estimated to be 60 to 80 miles an hour yet no one had seen any of them come back down. A controller at Bullhead city told me one of the local residents claimed several pieces landed just outside of Oatman Arizona.
  • 78TARROW78TARROW
    The best lessons are from the real world. I appreciate Dave sharing his pucker moment with the rest of us. Aviation safety is enhanced when folks 'fess up. It is helpful, for some, for the perp to add a statement along the lines of, "I'll never do that again." Others will take that for granted. Flying Magazine does a "I learned about flying from that" piece along the same vein.

    To the speed point, the POH entry speed (if provided) or Va would be the place to start. One could build down from there toward lower speeds. For many of us it would be prudent to bring a CFI along before attempting steep turns near the accelerated stall speed. I don't see much of an up side to practicing steep turn maneuvers at speeds much above Va, though I'm sure opinions vary.

    To the as yet unmentioned altitude point, have some extra.
  • GMGM
    78TARROW Wrote:
    > To the speed point, the POH entry speed (if
    > provided) or Va would be the place to start.

    Thank you.
  • PropFanPropFan
    Did some steep turn practice this past weekend, and 110 mph worked out very well in mostly smooth air. I love that physical feedback of hitting your wake when you've done it right. Until I get very proficient at that speed, I'll be reluctant to approach either Va or stall speed for further practice. Besides, why would I want to practice near Va and risk structural damage if I had to make a sudden correction?

    78TRRoW: By "entry speed" do you mean the speed for downwind leg?
  • GMGM
    PropFan Wrote:
    > Besides, why would I want to practice
    > near Va and risk structural damage if I had to
    > make a sudden correction?

    I appears you don't have a full grasp of one of the purposes of maneuvering speed.

    Conversational detail can be greater but this website fairly well sums it up for the student:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuvering_speed


    > 78TRRoW: By "entry speed" do you mean the speed
    > for downwind leg?

    "Entry speed" is the manufacturers recommend entry speed for the maneuver if one is published or maneuvering speed if none is published.
  • PropFanPropFan
    Nothing in the wikipedia article is inconsistent with my understanding of Va. So, I repeat: why would I want to practice steep turns at 129 mph (Va for my Cherokee)? What's the point of risking damage? What if I hit an unexpected pocket of turbulence when I'm at a 45 degree bank at Va? In fact, Va would typically be less than 129 mph because I fly at lower than the gross limit.

    Also, I've never seen a POH that lists an entry speed for steep turns. Glad to be enlightened, though.
  • GMGM
    PropFan Wrote:
    > I repeat: why would I want to practice steep turns
    > at 129 mph (Va for my Cherokee)? What's the point of risking
    > damage? What if I hit an unexpected pocket of
    > turbulence when I'm at a 45 degree bank at Va? In
    > fact, Va would typically be less than 129 mph
    > because I fly at lower than the gross limit.

    OK, I apologize, it's I that needs to be enlightened.

    If you fly at the appropriate maneuvering speed for your specific gross weight, how would you "risk structural damage if I had to make a sudden correction?"
  • GMGM
    PropFan Wrote:
    > Also, I've never seen a POH that lists an entry
    > speed for steep turns. Glad to be enlightened,
    > though.



    A trip to my book case found an example on the first attempt.

    A "manufacturers recommend entry speed for the maneuver" can be found in a 1972 C-150 Owner’s Manual. On page 4-2 there is a list of maneuvers and speeds for Chandelles, Lazy Eights, Steep Turns, Spins and stalls (except whip stalls).

    A steep turn for training purposes can be over a 45 degree bank. You can also be 55 to 60. So as some here would like you to believe, when they wish to practice maneuvers at any old speed just in case they “unexpectedly” encounter one at any old speed, they shouldn’t be flying in the yellow arc and just for kicks, roll into a 60 degree bank. That is my point. If you abide by the manufacture's recommendations and or the PTS Standards you will not bend anything and you will become just as proficient by doing it methodically.
  • 78TARROW78TARROW
    Va is typically defined in relation to gross weight, decreasing as gross weight decreases. You are unable to damage your aircraft with straightforward control inputs at Va, though you could input a combination of that puts the aircraft in some unanticipated state. Accelerated stall with the ball of center is a recipe for an 'E' ticket. Thus the recommendations for a CFI and altitude.
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