new pilot w/cherokee ownership questions
hey everyone!
i'm currently working towards my private pilot certificate after a 10 year hiatus (stupid) and will have my certification by spring. luckily, i'm still young (27) and am now in a much better position financially, more mature and more time without school in the way to finally follow my dream and passion of flying.
i know that once i get my certificate, i'm going to be getting good use out of it and building hours between flying hours for pleasure and to visit friends and family out of state. my plans are to work towards my IFR rating as soon as possible and continue to my commercial rating and go from there. with the type of flying and the destinations that i will be traveling to most frequently, i can quickly see that renting an aircraft is going to be quite expensive long term. within a year or so, i'll be in a position to purchase an aircraft outright and thats ideally what i'd like to do. i've considered partial ownerships, but not knowing many people in the local aviation community i'm not too keen about the idea, plus i know they can go sour pretty easily. therefore i'm thinking owning my own plane would be best for me. i also have a great relationship with my neighbor whom is building a hangar at KSGS that would be able to provide the perfect, heated hangar for my new airplane at a reasonable price thats only a few steps away from my instructor & mechanic. my instructor thinks its a great idea and said he'd love to come along for a pre-buy inspection, school me on maintenance procedures and perform my annuals at a reasonable rate.
ideally, i'd like to spend less than $35k for the airplane, so something in the mid 20s or low 30s would be ideal. i'd like to be able to get into something thats mechanically sound, IFR capable and looks somewhat decent. paint and interior don't have to be mint, but it helps...but that said i don't mind having to refurbish an interior or exterior paint somewhere down the road if i have to (i'm used to it being a car enthusiast and collector already).
i've been finding myself gravitating to the cherokee line up. i just love how they look, i've flown a few in years past and i've always really enjoyed how they have handled. my instructor has recommended sticking with a 150hp cherokee 140 because of its ability to run on cheaper car gas rather than 100LL and easy maintenance. i'm 6'0 and 220lbs, and most of my flying will have me flying between st paul (KSGS) to des moines (KDSM) and KSGS to monticello (KMXO), with the occasional passenger or two. however, longer cross country flights to places like MA or GA would not be out of the question once or twice a year.
so would you guys recommend sticking with the little 140? or is the extra power out of the 160 or 180 worth the cost in more expensive fuel and maintenance? i'm really torn right now on what to choose between power and efficiency. really the only big disadvantage that i'm finding with the 140 is that its useful load isn't exactly spectacular, but 90% of the time its going to be just me anyway with an overnight bag at most for longer weekend trips, and most of my flying is going to be within a 400 nm radius of KSGS.
thoughts and opinions welcome!
thanks!
TJ
i'm currently working towards my private pilot certificate after a 10 year hiatus (stupid) and will have my certification by spring. luckily, i'm still young (27) and am now in a much better position financially, more mature and more time without school in the way to finally follow my dream and passion of flying.
i know that once i get my certificate, i'm going to be getting good use out of it and building hours between flying hours for pleasure and to visit friends and family out of state. my plans are to work towards my IFR rating as soon as possible and continue to my commercial rating and go from there. with the type of flying and the destinations that i will be traveling to most frequently, i can quickly see that renting an aircraft is going to be quite expensive long term. within a year or so, i'll be in a position to purchase an aircraft outright and thats ideally what i'd like to do. i've considered partial ownerships, but not knowing many people in the local aviation community i'm not too keen about the idea, plus i know they can go sour pretty easily. therefore i'm thinking owning my own plane would be best for me. i also have a great relationship with my neighbor whom is building a hangar at KSGS that would be able to provide the perfect, heated hangar for my new airplane at a reasonable price thats only a few steps away from my instructor & mechanic. my instructor thinks its a great idea and said he'd love to come along for a pre-buy inspection, school me on maintenance procedures and perform my annuals at a reasonable rate.
ideally, i'd like to spend less than $35k for the airplane, so something in the mid 20s or low 30s would be ideal. i'd like to be able to get into something thats mechanically sound, IFR capable and looks somewhat decent. paint and interior don't have to be mint, but it helps...but that said i don't mind having to refurbish an interior or exterior paint somewhere down the road if i have to (i'm used to it being a car enthusiast and collector already).
i've been finding myself gravitating to the cherokee line up. i just love how they look, i've flown a few in years past and i've always really enjoyed how they have handled. my instructor has recommended sticking with a 150hp cherokee 140 because of its ability to run on cheaper car gas rather than 100LL and easy maintenance. i'm 6'0 and 220lbs, and most of my flying will have me flying between st paul (KSGS) to des moines (KDSM) and KSGS to monticello (KMXO), with the occasional passenger or two. however, longer cross country flights to places like MA or GA would not be out of the question once or twice a year.
so would you guys recommend sticking with the little 140? or is the extra power out of the 160 or 180 worth the cost in more expensive fuel and maintenance? i'm really torn right now on what to choose between power and efficiency. really the only big disadvantage that i'm finding with the 140 is that its useful load isn't exactly spectacular, but 90% of the time its going to be just me anyway with an overnight bag at most for longer weekend trips, and most of my flying is going to be within a 400 nm radius of KSGS.
thoughts and opinions welcome!
thanks!
TJ
Comments
Like you, I gravitated toward the 140 from the 172s during my instruction and shortly after getting my license I bought a -161. I've never regretted that decision. The 140 is an excellent plane. Easy to fly, easy and cheap to maintain, and a large number of forums to help with every issue you could encounter. The 180 might be a better choice for anyone with the mission you describe, although a 160HP 140 would likely suffice. You're more likely to find the desired avionics for your future goals already installed in a 180 than most 140s. I know of a 180 that's for sale at 82IS, here in Northern Illinois, if you're interested.
Good luck, and welcome to the forum.
VFRs, without TFRs,
Dennis_ARR
1978 PA28-161
KARR Aurora, Illinois
Is the maintenance cost on a 160 or 180 considerably more than the. 140?
Both the 140 and the 180, or 161 and the -181, are very similar engines, similar airframes, respectively, both fixed pitch, and both fixed gear. There is no significant difference between the maintenance or cost of parts for either model. The 180 HP models will cost a bit more to purchase, but even the insurance will be similar.
VFRs,
Dennis
Sounds like the 140 would bee fine, id just hate to buy not enough aircraft.
APG Eastern Avionics rhart@avionix.com www.avionix.com
yeah thats what i keep hearing, esp from my instructor. he said its a great time right now to buy, and as i've started to begin my search as to what i'd like to get into over the next year or so, i'm finding some really good deals on some nice airplanes.
Cheers,
>MikeL<
I bought my first plane in January, a '73 PA28-180 after getting my PPL last year. My typical missions sound a lot like what you're planning - some local, with cross countries out to about 400nm. I flew a 140 in traiing and I agree with the previous comments that you'll probably outgrow the 140 pretty quickly. The extra power and useful load is really nice, plus if you go with a '73 or newer (i.e., a Challenger or early Archer) you'll have a few inches more leg room for your back seat passengers.
Jeff
Maintenance expense between the 140/180 will not be appreciably different, similar airframes and engines. Fixed gear and fixed pitch props, hard to go wrong. Have a good prebuy or , even better, pay for an annual and then negotiate the squawks. You'll know exactly where you stand.
Have fun in your search and good luck!
Kevin
not going to find a 180 or a 161 with an IFR panel for that (and you don't want to buy an aircraft with over 1200 since major and expect to come out of it okay!). You can easily spend $10-12K on decent used avionics to get an IFR panel and that's without an IFR GPS. The 74 Warrior for $38K sounds OK but engine time and avionics on board? Yes, I agree, the Cherokee 140 suffers from performance but if it is a time builder towards your IFR ticket, you won't find many low wing aircraft that you can buy for $25K, have room to upgrade the avionics and is as affordable to fly and maintain and when the time comes to trade-up, not lose a ton. Yes, you have a 2 1/2 seat aircraft and your not going anywhere in a hurry but your on budget and ... you can afford to fly more often. If you think of the aircraft as a time builder and a stepping stone ... it's a reasonable approach. Bob Hart APG Eastern Avionics rhart@avionix.com
www.avionix.com
TJAIR, all of us have differing mission profiles and different opinions as to what works best for us. As you can tell "best airplane" is a subjective term! It is a rare individual who buys an airplane and has it fit them perfectly. From your description any of the Cherokees are going to work well for you most of the time. Everything is a trade-off. As you gain profiancy, skill and perhaps a family or others to bring along, you may want to trade this first airplane for something that fits you better. Through my career I've been involved in a great many aircraft aquisitions and I can't stress this part enough... More important than overthinking the debate is to ensure that whatever you buy: fits your budget, is in good condition (ie. worth what you are paying for it) and priced accordingly. That way when you choose to trade-up or down , as the case may be, you won't loose your shirt!
Have your chosen purchase evaluated by competent individuals. if you are not a mechanic, find one (or a company) you trust. If you are not sure how to correctly value the airplane, speak with an appraiser or aircraft salesman. This guidance isn't usually free, but remember, that a hundred or two spent to avoid a several (possibly tens of) thousand dollar mistake is money well spent! The Cherokee series airplanes have been around a long time, and there are many people out there who know volumes about them, its not hard to find good advice.
Good luck with your purchase!
Kevin
i can definitely see this from all angles, and i would absolutely LOVE to have a 160/180 model or even an archer (that and i really like the 3 window style). but thats getting to the upper end of my budget of what i want to spend. sure, i'd love to have the few extra knots on cruising speed and more useful load, but above all whats the most important to me is keeping it affordable to fly so i can stay in the air and build hours. thats my biggest fear is buying too much airplane that i now can't afford to fly, and i've seen a lot of people do just that. i have found a few 160 models that i could prolly swing for when the time comes, but again i'm brought back by running costs of using 100LL avgas. being able to run on mogas means i can spend more time in the air, even if it is slower. perhaps a 160 or 180 with a mogas conversion would be a possibility if the price is right. its a hard to say, i'm def. going to have a difficult search with my aircraft mechanic when the time comes to purchase.
affordable & reliability is really what i'm after -- i'm only 27 and a fresh pilot, so theres lots of opportunity in years to come to buy bigger & faster aircraft. my budget allows for more airplane, but i don't want to push it. by keeping the airplane on the lower end of my budget that will allow me to have more flexibility for upgrades, fuel and maint. i'm an active guy and aside from aviation i'm a car enthusiast and i have several cars, one of which is an on going restoration project. so its important to me that i can have a healthy balance between the two so i can fully enjoy both without strapping me from the things i love.
Cheers, Aaron
Regardless of what you buy, I would HIGHLY recommend getting a pre-buy inspection. I spent roughly $2k on a pre-buy and my mechanic flying it across the country for me, and while it stung it was worth it. That was the end of a several month search, in which he didn't charge me a dime but helped me avoid 3 different planes that would have been money pits. One was within budget, new paint, new interior, OK radios and only 15 hours SMOH. Turns out the overhaul had been done 10 years prior and it had been sitting ever since. I would have never realized the possible issues that could arise from that, so he saved me a possible top overhaul (or worse).
Hope that helps, and good luck!!
NASA did a cost/benefit study on personal air vehicles and found that outright ownership rarely makes economic sense for people earning less than a couple hundred dollars per hour. In other words, the time saved by flying isn't worth the extra money we spent. However, with 4 or 5 partners, aircraft ownership starts to make economic sense for your typical working professional.
Full ownership does have some convenience and perks and perhaps that's the best solution for you. However, if you are lucky enough to find a good partnership, you might find that you can afford to own a nicer airplane and to fly it more often. Good luck!
if i could find a good share that i would still consider it. i may have a possible connection on an IFR certified 140 at another airport (flying cloud) that i might be able to buy into, but i haven't met the owners or seen the aircraft yet. aside from that i don't know anyone else yet really in the community so it may be a good search if i decide to go down that route. it would be nicer to be able to have "more" aircraft for less than the cost of owning outright. overall though, i have nothing but time -- i'm a brand new pilot so i got plenty of time to decide and try out different things to see what works out best. i'll start off with renting and work my way up from there, but ideally, i'd still love to own my own plane outright. its just the kind of guy that i am -- i'm the same way with my cars. its no doubt expensive and theres no need for me to have as many as i do...but its what i do that makes me happy
with the Sundowner. Beech has always made a quality aircraft and the Sundowner rates as pretty solid. You'll use a bit more gas. It does appear to have "decent" radios including an Apollo panel mount GPS and a KX-155 Nav-Com. Check it out? It might meet your needs (in between the `140 and the 180?) Go ahead guys ... BEAT ME UP! Bob Hart APG Eastern Avionics rhart@avionix.com www.avionix.com