N8434M

HGeorgeC*

Hi All!
New Guy...
Happy New Guy Too, coming over from the Cessna site.
Big reason I’m here is Scott Sherer!
Last year I was looking into buying a Skymaster and Scott’s help and expertise were invaluable!
Thank You Scott!
Long story but, I sobered up, came to my senses and I am now the owner of a, new to me, Beautiful 1981 Seneca III!
I’ve had her since late fall and have only put on about 30 hours or so due to COVID concerns, I know everyone here understands...
But that all is changing now, so we are looking to a fun Spring and Summer and beyond of flying! Girlfriend and I are looking forward to Florida, Bahamas, Texas, Cape Cod and Montana to start!
We’re based at Lorain County, a nice size airport just west of Cleveland Ohio.
This is my first time owning an airplane so the learning curve is straight up!
Got great people who have helped me every step of the way so far!
Thank You John, Jerry, Pauly, Larry, all Piper Owners,
and so many more!
I recently retired from United Airlines flying the Boeing 737 here outa KCLE, U.S. Air Force prior to the Airline. I’m originally from the Chicago area where I learned to fly at Elgin Airport, a Piper Distributor, where this 16 year old Lineboy kid was in pure heaven!
So, I’m looking forward to learning a lot here, flying a lot and spending part of my kids inheritance along the way!
Thank You all advance!
Stay Safe, Fly Fun!

George Henning

empannin

Welcome George! I also moved to a Seneca III in Q4 last year and it has been fun. Every mechanic I have talked to cringes on the Cessna 337 - it is not a bad plane but it can be a nightmare to work on and is very tightly cowled fore and aft.

Sharp looking Seneca!

Scott Sherer

You're welcome, George!

griff390

Welcome George! Thank you for your service. Beautiful bird!

Harley Kleemann

Nice aircraft, George!!!

HGeorgeC*

Thanks All!
Good to be here!
Lotsa questions, but I’ll pace myself!
George
CLE

nathanj

Hey George and Eric, congrats on the Seneca 3 purchases! I am really eyeing a Seneca 3 as my first twin and looking to buy this year. Seems to check almost all of the boxes I have. I live on Sugarloaf Key, so I literally can't avoid overwater flight - one of the main reasons I'm looking at moving up to a twin.

I have a fair base of past flying knowledge - CFI and CGII in the 90's, 1500 TT, but zero twin time. Over the years I've owned a Cherokee 140, an Arrow, a Cirrus SR20 and a Piper Warrior (got totalled in Irma). My recency is not great, and I'm renting a 172 working on getting my stick and rudder skills back - and then IPC - before I tackle the multi-license.

What do you guys think of the Seneca as a first twin? I know the turbos can add a little complexity, and that has led me to look at the Aztec as well (and also the 337, but you almost have me talked out of that!).

I am somewhat anxious about moving up to a twin based on the horror stories of pilots getting themselves in trouble, and also somewhat concerned about dispatch vs. buying back into a Cirrus for the simplicity and potentially better dispatch (not sure if any of this is accurate, considering my lack of twin ownership).

I would be most appreciative if you guys or anyone else on the forum would be willing to lend some insight. I'm not terribly concerned about operating costs. I'm figuring 30-50k per year for 100 hours per year, but wouldn't kill me if I have a few years that exceed that.

Scott Sherer

Having owned 3 Seneca's over thirty years I can tell you that you will love the airplane. I came up through Mooney 231 and then a Seminole (twin) in the years before the Seneca. Without either turbo or twin experience, the Seneca will be a handful for the first 50 hours. I didn't want to take months to learn my first Seneca so I just planned a trip from Milwaukee, Wisconsin to Los Angeles and back. I was flying with ease and confidence upon my return. You will have a challenge with the TSIO-360 engines. The throttles are extremely sensitive. And the flight controls are very heavy. It's a full fisted airplane. However, it will become home to you by 50 hours or so. Fuel, insurance, hangar, maintenance and upgrades are very expensive but if the money isn't an issue than you will be in love at about 90 days. As the movie line goes: You had me at hello.
Enjoy! I loved my 3 Seneca's!

nathanj

Thank you so much, Scott! I really appreciate the input. I have a very similar plan for training - full immersion for the first few months or so and then hopefully, as you suggest, have the majority of the systems and protocols in place.

empannin

Most of the pattern speeds are going to be about what the SR20 was. Adding weight in the back when lightly loaded helps in the flare as well as progressively trimming.

Control forces are on the heavy side in general but it also makes for a nice solid IFR platform. It is easier to trim vs the SR20 with the all or nothing trim switch that is challenging to make small adjustments.
There are some great glass panel options now too.

The SR20/22 series is great until you need to carry stuff and this is where the Seneca III excels. you can take the back two seats out and put a tremendous amount of gear back there balancing out W/B with forward storage in the nose. Scuba tanks, dive gear, short surfboards and inflatable stand up paddles would fit easily. The wide opening doors make these easy to do. You could also carry things impossible to take commercially like e-foil boards and the oversize batteries.

The three foundations of twin safety are good training, keeping it light (500+ below gross) and using runways with acceptable start/stop distances. As you gain experience you can adjust your limits. The throttles are sensitive but manageable. Since most are going places and cruise is fixed altitude there is not much adjustment needed. If you are sightseeing in the keys just pick an approximate cruise setting, adjust the fuel and enjoy the view.

nathanj

Thanks so much for your insight, Eric.

Should I be looking for one with Melyn Wastegates, or plan on adding them? I've read mixed reviews. It seems like it might ease a small bit of the workload for me, and might possibly help protect the engines from newbie lack of turbo experience.

I also don't see many with VG's, which I've generally heard good things about on other twins. Maybe not as necessary with the already docile Piper characteristics?

I need to buy something this year. I could do it in November, or I could do it tomorrow - so I am hopefully in a decent position to do my due diligence and find a solid example to purchase. I'm hoping to stay in the 150-200k range. I don't need or even want known ice or deice equipment (95% of my flying is in Florida).

Again, I really appreciate all of your time and input. One of the drawbacks of Keys Life is the lack of airplanes and owners. I haven't seen a Seneca on the flight line at KMTH this year. There are loads of Barons and a few 310's.

I'm headed to Sun and Fun on Tuesday, so hopefully, I'll get a chance to talk with some owners there. If any of you will be there on April 13, let me know. I'd love to meet you and check out your plane!

empannin

I thought about the Merlyn waste gates. They are not really an automated wastegate so it still requires careful adjustment. My Cessna 421C had hydraulic driven wastegates with a controller. You could set it and forget it. However, they had a nasty habit of blowing oil into the turbo and spendy.

VG's are on list. I don't have them but have had on prior. They are a Useful load improvement for the Seneca II. Not for the 3 but still better handling at low speed. The only real low speed "gotcha" with the Seneca series is the pull force can be high - two hands high - if you did not trim and are flaring. Easily addressed with training, trim and you can also keep a bit of power on. Over the fence the air over the wings and stabilitator keep them effective. When you pull power this lift is lost and must be made up with a harder pull on the yoke. If you like to cross then fence pulling 20 lbs or more you will be pulling 40+ lbs in the flare. Trim closer to neutral and the forces are very reasonable in flare.

No boots would save on maint and useful load + a bit faster. Might hurt resale but factored into the purchase too. Go high enough and you will find ice anywhere. I think up to 14k is ideal for a non-pressurized turbocharged plane. Modest O2 requirements and long hypoxia response times. Gets more challenging above 17k. The engines work harder in the flight levels too as the turbo is trying to go from outside pressure to 40" vs lower. If you are island hoping the turbo's still give you reserve power and climb performance.

That close to the sea I would proactively spray anti-corrosion and wash down regularly with fresh water.

Are you hosting a fly in BBQ?

nathanj

Hey Eric,

Great perspective on the Merlyn wastegates and VG's. I've definitely kicked around going with a II and getting the vg's for the 168lb gw increase. Good advice on the anti-corrosion and wash down too. I've always figured regular Corrosion X into any plane I own down here (excluding the Cirrus, of course). I'm not sure how much it helps but it's such an unfriendly environment for metal, it makes me feel at least a little better.

Anytime you're in the Keys and are up for BBQ, a trip to the reef etc, I'm ready (I know boats better than I know Senecas!).

Thanks again!

Nate

Scott Sherer

Two thumbs up on the Merlyn Black Magic Upper Deck Controllers. Temps are lower when you're below 10,000 ft or so. I have one now on my TSIO-360-FB.

empannin

Hi Nate, I might fly out there on a long x-country this summer. Will keep you updated. Would be fun to get together and happy to give you a ride.

The early Cirrus SR series did have some Al hardware for attachments that did poorly in the sea salt. The Seneca III does have a higher zero fuel weight vs the II. This could be important if you are taking more cargo vs fuel. The zero fuel weight of a Seneca II is 4470 lbs vs 4000 lbs which is significant. Vg's do not change the zero fuel weight limitations.

I would suggest getting some time in a Seneca II or III in a flight school and consider also getting your multi rating in the same make/model as you intend to buy. It makes the insurance process easier.

HGeorgeC*

Hi Nathan,
Thank you for the kind words and good luck on your hunt for a Seneca!
As a brand new owner I can share a few points I’ve learned along the way so far...
I also have previous Piper experience, mostly PA-28 but I did get my ATP in a Seneca II a hundred years ago, so I had 10-15 hours in one already.
Since this is my first ownership the learning curve is straight up on things like insurance, hangers and maintenance, sounds like you got a handle on all that though.
I looked at several airplane options, from an Arrow to a Cardinal, to a Malibu all the way up to, believe it or not, to a Twin Commander... then I woke up!
I first settled on a twin, then narrowed it down to the Seneca.
The whole “single vs. twin” thing danced in my head a lot. Especially night and/or overwater.
I liked the Skymaster at first, the Centerline Thrust thingy, but after flying both the Normal Aspirated and the P Model I still felt that kinda “closed in effect” of the wing above you. The cabin wasn’t very wide either and 2 guys are rubbing shoulders most of the time, just like in a 150. The Seneca cabin is as wide as a Malibu’s I believe and 2 big ol’ boys up front there feel comfortable!
If you liked your Cherokee, I think you’ll like a Seneca. Close your eyes and you’ll still be able to find most things.
My III has the Manual Flaps and flys like a Big Six.
I love how stable the airplane is, and like everyone else here has shared with you, they are heavy in pitch, especially in the flare. I’ve got thousands of hours in Boeing’s and my Seneca is MUCH heavier in pitch then a 737... but you train for that and it becomes a non issue.
The TSIO-360KB is a bit sensitive with the power.
S L O W throttle movements...
You move the throttle a little and you look down and you’ve wiped off 10 inches of MAP, so go slow, up and down.
Lotsa power though, especially with the turbo!
I like the systems, it’s got a very good Heater, I do not have AC so I bought an Artic Air Ice Unit that seems to work well so far.
I bought her with a nice Garmin 750xi which works great and I suggest it, if you can spend the money.
I like the King KFC Autopilot System with ADI and HSI. It works nice, tracks well.
I like the club seating in the back, good room,
although mines been mostly empty with COVID.
Hopefully that’ll change soon, for all of us!
24 GPH is a good burn rate, about 160 KIAS @ 65% has worked for me on the few cross country’s I’ve done so far.
Pattern work is pure Piper, 100 knots on downwind, drop 10 degrees of flap, then the gear, second notch on base, over the fence at 90, keep the power in till just before you flare, remember the heavy nose, and you will get some good landings!
I like flaps 25 unless it’s short. If it is, full flaps and 85 has worked well.
The gear is hydro-electric and works nice.
She won’t turn on a dime when taxiing, so wide berths.
The 1981’s just after mine came with 28VDC systems and electric flaps, AC on those is supposed to work well too.
I bought mine thru Bartelt Aviation in Sturgis MI, they are Piper Specialists, mainly Saratoga’s and Lances, but have PA-34’s once in a while. Great bunch of people there, they work to help you out, say “Hi” to Larry Russell if you talk with them.
The price range you quoted is right in the ballpark.
As a “new to GA” kinda guy after retiring from the airline, I found Garmin Pilot to be very helpful with PA-34 W&B and Aircraft Specific Flight Planning.
One thing that I did carry over from the airlines is...
Training.
I know you know all this but, get and stay in the books when flying a multi-engine complex airplane. Know the systems, the performance and practice all the profiles. Know the “Immediate Action Items” or, as we called them in the Air Force, your “Bold Face Items”.
We had so many great Instructors at Continental/United, but I remember one guy saying something I’ll never forget...
“Your body can’t go where the mind hasn’t been first”
Well, I hope this helped!
I love the airplane, I know you will too, good hunting!
Fly Fun, Stay Safe!
George
CLE

Scott Sherer

And full power is only available for five minutes on takeoff. Then you have to power back a bit. But that full power on the takeoff roll and initial climbout to pattern altitude is definitely a thrill ride. You will love this plane!