Piper POH Missing

greygoose

I recently purchased a turbo Arrow III, but the POH is missing. Piper website says to contact Piper dealer for official copies of POH tied to serial number. Have contacted three Piper dealers with no luck. Does anyone have an inside track on who to contact?

Ben

griff390

Call the Piper factory in Vero Beach FL. They'll help you out.

griff390

PS - once you have the POH that matches your serial number, you'll need to have your plane weighed, and the empty weight numbers updated for weight/balance.

greygoose

Thanks Griff. Will give them a call.

empannin

You will also need to check and see if any additions to the plane also had a POH revision. Backup vac, garmin 430/530, and VG's would be an example.

Scott Sherer

I did a webinar that included a whole section on POH's. Here's a link if you're interested. https://piperowner.org/webinar-what-every-arrow-owner-needs-to-know-by-scott-sherer/

greygoose

Scott,
Thanks. I went ahead and ordered the POH from Piper (ouch), but has not yet arrived and I will need to pick the plane up from the shop and fly to its new home on Monday. The plane does have the Merlyn upper deck controller installed, but my understanding is that you still have to be careful to not overboost the engine on take off. What is the maximum MAP that you allow for take off?
Ben

empannin

If you search on google for a Turbo Arrow III information manual you will find a number of links to documents. This is not a replacement of a real POH but it will have numbers for a generic plane. A turbo IV it is 2575 and 41" MP.
You can still overboost with the Merlyn set up which is not a true wastegate controller and mainly reduces upperdeck pressure.

~ Same engine as the Seneca III with a lower RPM limit. I would highly recommend finding a pilot with make/model time to accompany you. Also, make sure you run it up on the ground to full power looking for these things.

1) Smoothly roll on power slowing down at 35 MP to let the system come up. It will likely overshoot to 37 or so and then go to 40 (or whatever the max is)
2) RPM (I think) should be 2575
3) Fuel flow must be near the red line or at least well into the yellow on take off, More fuel (up to redline) is more detonation margin
4) EGT's (TIT) should be around 1300 or so /(at least 250F below peak)

This confirms you are making power at the right fuel mixture. It will probably be hard to keep the plane from going forward so do a full power run up with nothing behind you and plenty of space forward.

If the fuel is too lean or EGT's too high I would take it back to the shop for an adjustment.

You should consult the AIM for required documents prior to flight. I have one official copy of my POH in the plane and 3 information copies that I keep in the plane and at home. I would not say I have memorized it entirely but I have extensively studied and briefed on emergency, normal, limitations and the performance section.

I would also confirm you have the W/B for the plane on board.

Here is a video of a landing in a Turbo piper iV

Scott Sherer

Grey,
41" at 2575rpm for max power. However, unless the density altitude is high or the runway is short, I rarely use more than 36 or 37" on the takeoff roll. Start the roll at 30" and raise from there. Engine procedures with the Merlin UDC are the same as without.

greygoose

Thanks for the information Scott and Eric.

Ben

aerobuffet

Does the POH from Piper include all of the revisions since the date of manufacture? I watched Scott's presentation and the Pilot Information Manual isn't legal (in my opinion) without having included all of those revisions.

The files you get from Essco or eFlightManuals are simply scans (and really poor ones at that) of a manuals from a specific S/N range. I'd hope that Piper would have also created a PDF that includes all of the revisions but that search has been fruitless, thus far.

The other problem is that there is no way to include supplements for all of the avionics. My Garmin GPS is over 250 pages. We're all going to end up carrying those fat briefcases like the airline pilots had to carry for their charts just to be legal in a ramp check.

To my knowledge, having all of these as an electronic file on our iPads doesn't meet the requirements, despite the fact that I can access and find what I need faster and more safely. Is anyone aware of whether my understanding is incorrect?

greygoose

aerobuffet - Yes the POH from Piper did include all of the revisions. However, as you (and others) point out, I still have to assemble all the current supplements.

Ben

aerobuffet

Thanks. I guess I'll endure the pain and order one. With no mechanism for determining what may be missing - much less where to get it - buying one will save a lot of time and is probably worth the cost.

greygoose

Piper wants you to order the manuals through one of the their dealers, but after I called them and told them I contacted three dealers and no one ever got back to me they went ahead and took my order. (Cost was $400). Here is who I spoke with at Piper:
Brian Fallon | Sr. Service Quote Coordinator
brian.fallon@piper.com | www.piper.com
P: 772-299-2583

Good luck.
Ben

aerobuffet

Thanks. I had the same experience. No dealer ever responded to my calls or emails. Unless you want to drop $400k on a new plane, they must not be interested in providing service.

empannin

Two other things in the plane specific POH and not in the Information manuals is the W/B as well as the equipment list. I would say 99% of equipment lists are outdated but it is possible you will be asked to present one. Since Piper has not gone out of business a million times it is possible they still have records of your equipment list and original W/B.

Depending on the history of the W/B you might also consider having the plane remeasured too.

aerobuffet

Thanks. Fortunately, I got a complete W/B when my avionics upgrades were done with the ADS-B work. I wasa concerned with revisions prior to 2002 when I bought my share in the plane.

Manufacturers should be required to provide hard or soft copies of revisions on their website just as they do for SBs and ADs. Of course, trying to get other required forms from repair stations, etc. is futile, too.

empannin

My A&P IA was able to get revisions to the POH in soft form to make my POH current. I ended up printing them out at POH size and then sleeving them in plastic in a new binder.

I will look back and see if I can figure out where he got them from at Piper.

aerobuffet

Thanks. In an earlier post Gray goose provided the name of Brian Fallon at Piper with a phone number and email address.

empannin

Hi, I checked back and my POH revisions were also from Brian Fallon.
I have attached an example of what one looks like. To bring a POH current you need to identify the last revision, order all the ones missing and then do them in sequence.

Piper also publishes a list of current documents that shows the when the last update was for manuals, POH, etc.
https://www.piper.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Customer_Service_Info.pdf

griff390

POH side story:

My 1978 Warrior II was 20 yrs old when I purchased it. Shortly afterward, I was having a conversation with my father who is also a pilot. He had purchased a generic PA28-161 POH to study from, and it listed the gross weight for the Warrior II at 2,440 lbs. I argued that the gross was only 2,325 lbs, which I was pretty sure I remembered from the POH in the plane. To settle the difference of opinion, I drove to the airport and pulled the POH from the airplane. We were both right, but there was a twist. Prior to 1983, Warrior II's were rated at 2,325 lbs gross, and afterwards, 2,440 lbs (a 115 lb increase).

I made my point, but something far more disturbing was discovered. The POH in the aircraft had the correct year of manufacture, serial number, and equipment list. All the data in the POH confirmed that it belonged to this exact airplane. However, I noticed the V speeds and performance numbers were all wrong. Digging deeper, I discovered that back in 1978 when my plane was built, Piper delivered this airplane with the wrong POH! The POH in my airplane was from a Warrior I with the 150 HP engine. Worse yet, over a 20 year span, none of the previous owners caught the error. I called Piper to correct the issue. They told me that I needed to purchase a new POH that matched my serial number for the low, low price of almost $400. Let's just say the conversation became a bit heated when I pointed out that they failed to supply the correct POH back in 1978 when the aircraft was built, and therefore are responsible for the cost of the correct POH. Further, this aircraft has (technically speaking), been flying illegally for 20+ years, including it's test flight after exiting the factory doors! I lost the argument and had to buck up $400 for the correct POH. I'm still not happy about it, but all the paperwork is now correct and matches the aircraft. I feel your pain of having to purchase a $400 POH.

johnsouthworth

Piper put my serial number in it. You are meant to fly with an approved flight manual FOR THE AIRCRAFT(not just type)remember!!

aerobuffet

I tried to reach Brian Fallon at Piper via email on Nov 20 and got no response. I lost track of it until today and tried to reach him by phone. It rang a lot but never went into voice mail. Don't know if they're shut down for the Xmas holiday or shut down because they're short of workers to build planes.

aerobuffet

Good luck to all of you in reaching Mr. Fallon. I'm wondering if he's no longer with Piper. I got no response to my email and he hasn't answered his phone in the half dozen attempts I've made. I called selected the "general factory rep" option who cheerfully transferred me to the support folks who (you guessed it) didn't answer the phone.

When I do finally succeed, I'll provide an update here since I plan to ask specifically who should be contacted and at what number or email address. This is ridiculous.

johnsouthworth

Try Douglas Gough, dets below

Douglas Gough | Senior Sales Coordinator
Aftermarket Parts | Technical Publications
Engineering Drawings | Data Plates
douglas.gough@piper.com | www.piper.com
P: 1.772.299.2583
Piper Aircraft, Inc., 2926 Piper Drive, Vero Beach, FL 32960