Why don't FBO's want to refill supplemental oxygen?
It seems that FBO's that refill oxygen tanks are fewer and fewer. The ones that do are charging huge amounts for the service. Wasn't that long ago that many FBO's offered the service for very reasonable prices. What happened?
Comments
People are dumb enough to buy it from them. Simple as that. Probably has something to do with storage as well. It’s also a hassle.
Do what I did. Buy the transfill from Mtn High, but an old o2 cylinder off Craigslist, head to your local Airgas or other brand compressed gas retail shop and swap it for a full tank. Then, fill your own.
Probably a couple hundred in parts and you are good to go.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
Yep. I am already filling in my hangar, but when I run low 1000 Mike's from home, it's a challenge these days.
To do 02 service you need a min of 3 tanks to cascade fill. So you need a pretty good size cart to put a system together. The other item may be liability. I would have know way of knowing if your tank in the plane is legal and current hydro-static. Most small FBo's as noted will not have fill equipement, not to mention, I'de question the skills of the dude doin the filling. Ya i know, its simple right? I have seen O2 fires in aircraft. Larger FBO's safer way to get it done. Correct me if i am wrong, I think i heard that hospital and aviation breathing o2 same or close to same moisture content?
Carl
48 yrs A/P IA DAL aircraft inspector. 172N
Make sure you are refilling your O2 systems with medical grade O2, and NOT industrial grade O2.
Jim "Doc Griff" Griffin
PA28 - 161
Chicago area
The fills come off the same LoX tank. There is no difference.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
FWIW, have spent a healthy amount of time on the topic of O2 'blends' and cannot find a single authoritative source stating that any one is the 'one'. Even stumbled across an article where somebody within the FAA tried to clarify which blend was required to go into aircraft / portable systems and yet this person could not get a determination.
Toward composition of each flavor, cannot find authoritative references which indicate that the various 'blends' are anything other than one source with multiple labels. Toward 'quality', the 'medical' O2 allegedly goes through additional testing (read: cost) where the other 'blends' do not; so far, that is the only real difference that I am able to find. But am also seeing where industrial O2 has less tolerance for impurities than 'medical' (including H2O) lest the impurities ruin the equipment.
Personal observation regarding which O2 is 'The O2' is that there is a lot of conjecture, and no absolutes. Just say-in and am definitely open to inputs from an industry expert.
Within the realm of possibilities for refilling a portable tank is the use of an O2 concentration system. But those things are crazy expensive compared to installing a 3 tank fill system. Only way I see a concentration system working economically is where somebody's insurance / Medicare pays for it, and (in time) the individual passes. And agree that none of this helps when trying to refill a tank away from home.
Toward the question of why FBOs with O2 service are getting sparse, the only thing I am seeing which makes sense is supply and demand. And the demand is simply falling off.
And aside from a distant FBO filling the tank, the only other option is searching for gas suppliers and hoping that one will do the job.
This is from the horses mouth (faa) A 2021 guide you can find on line.
The major disadvantage is the weight and bulk of the
storage containers, which may become an issue in smaller
aircraft. Aviator’s oxygen must meet certain standards to
ensure that it is safe to be taken to altitude. Only aviator’s-
grade breathing oxygen meets this specification. Neither
medical grade nor industrial grade oxygen is safe to
substitute because they do not meet the same stringent standards as ABO
The difference as i suspected, is the standard of dryness for aviation dedicated O2. FYI,
Carl
48 yrs A/P IA DAL aircraft inspector. 172N
I can’t tell you how many pilots I have spoken with who fly on O2 in piston planes that are on O2. The extreme majority are filling with regular ol welding tank O2. Perhaps flying way up high, they found a theory plausible about moisture content. But I’m here to say I absolutely do not believe there is any acceptable reason not to use plain ol O2 of a standard tank. None. And on Beechtalk, you get laughed off the thread for trying to make the argument that ABO is any better than industrial O2. It’s like trying to argue a single patty burger is better than a dual patty burger from the same place.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
I dont doubt what you are saying by any means. Lets just say for legal reasons, this is the FAA stance.
carl
48 yrs A/P IA DAL aircraft inspector. 172N
Im not trying to bust your chops. I take notice of the FAA trying to act like O2 is some magical thing that only certain o2 works in planes. The premise is completely absurd.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
Somewhere in past research, I remember something about an O2 supplier being willing to charge extra to make you happy, but it still comes from the same supply.
Jim
I knew about industrial and medical grade O2, but didn't know there was an "aviation grade" O2. I presumed medical grade O2 was also used in aviation. Thank you for the clarification.
Jim "Doc Griff" Griffin
PA28 - 161
Chicago area
Welcome Jim.
Carl
48 yrs A/P IA DAL aircraft inspector. 172N
You are absolutely correct. Insisting on ABO is simply ignorant. Av Consumer did a write up on it a couple years ago.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
There is nothing legal to even speak of. There is no actionable rule in place.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
other than the specs they set forth for purity and moisture content, and if you can get it at Walmart down the corner, have at it.
48 yrs A/P IA DAL aircraft inspector. 172N
Do the research, make the choice. But a fool and his money are soon parted. FAA seems to think we are fools though, that’s for sure.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
I had an N2 tank on the Cessna 421C (blow down) and an O2 tank (for built in Oxy but only as emergency backup as the plane was pressurized - the tank was small too)
Nightmare to find a place to get them hydro'd and filled. A huge time sink too.
The future is portable oxygen concentrators.
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
The problem in that is if you regularly fly passengers. Thats going to be a boatload of AMUs to equip each seat, not to mention the weight penalties. Single pilot ops I agree though. I looked at them before I bought my Mtn High system. If there was a unit that had the capability to supply at least 5 users at the same time, I would be definitely looking at it.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
Ok, so slow day at work and challenge accepted.
I read the Aviation Consumer article after I re-researched and had written the following narrative. Turns out that we both came to the same conclusion, but from different paths.
Regarding FAA's available information, will beg to differ in that FAA is neither a spec nor authoritative source for this topic, but rather doctrine / governance. In looking over the FARs on oxygen use, it does not reference a spec which leaves room for interpritation. Just say-in. In searching parts 91, 121, and 135, the closest we get to defining the requirement is either "...oxygen..." or "...supplimental oxygen..." and nothing more. Put another way, the FAA had the opportunity to cite an industry standard / specification to clarify the requirement, yet chose to not make the reference. Even that quote from the FAA guide does not help as it pushes forward labels with zero technical backing. Again, just say-in.
Regarding what I look for as an authoritative source in this case, will clarify in that it is an accepted industry expert (or grouping of independent sources) as a source reference in terms of the manufacture, processing, and delivery of O2 based on the various specifications.
In terms of actual spec, the only hard number I found in open source was a DoD publication (MIL-PRF-27210) which defined breathable oxygen as: "...not less than 99.5 percent oxygen..." Gosh, why is something like that so hard for other entities in our Government to do?
Toward aviation breathable O2, I did find SAE spec AS8010 (or AS-8010). Interestingly, the spec description states that 'medical' O2 is "...a prescription drug..." which now makes me wonder whether the local O2 supply place is illegally offering to sell me 'medical' O2 without a prescription. In terms of getting to the core of AS8010's technical requirements, am finding that it is behind paywalls. Hmmm... While I do not have a heavy workload at the moment, am going to give the wallet a break and go cheap by not paying.
For getting down to the process of what separates one O2 blend from another, found an interesting conversation in a SCUBA forum where two people claimed to have a long term industry experience and personally observed the same line / pipe filling multiple flavors, where the only difference in process was the end bottle's appearance and labeling.
On the same SCUBA forum, another person was willing to put down some numbers:
- Air grade (am not absolutely sure if this means Aviation grade): > 80% O2.
- Med (probably means medical): > 80% (there are also comments where medical grade adds H2O right at the destination so that it is not so dry).
- Welding <drum-roll please...!>: 99.x% O2.
Ok, granted that the above numbers are from one person's memory not the actual spec, and at the same time they are getting us something to bite into.
Another nugget from the SCUBA discussion was a statement that the military O2 spec was tighter (more pure) than the aviation spec. With information so far, the published military aviation O2 spec is lining up with welding as the purest (and driest) of the flavors and we are starting to see a pattern emerge.
All this really does not help the GA community as our governing body (FAA) is silent in defining the requirement (per specification), the actual specification is not freely available, and there is sufficient anecdotal evidence that going the industrial / welding route actually provides a more pure (and economical) solution. Another challenging aspect is why any industrial gas provider would want to build the infrastructure to produce and store each flavor of O2. Makes more sense to simply build one infrastructure, produce one flavor, and then dumb-down as appropriate (if even necessary) at the time of filling the endpoint. Put another way, I know enough to have confidence that bean-counters have taken over industry, and cannot think of a single bean-counter that will justify building out multiple (nearly) parallel systems when just one will work; especially when able to premium price based on the bottle's labeling.
Yeah, I know, long read. Loving the conversation!
Yes, you also need a prescription to purchase one too. I think O2 is good for the pilot even if flying low enough that pilot + passengers are not required to have oxygen.
My own thoughts are I would not trust non-flying passengers to use oxygen in the back seats. There is no way to monitor them or even get to them in many cases...
Currently I have an MH O2D2 system like you. My buddy that had the 3 tanks of O2 I could refill with has taken off so I am considering switching to an O2 generator.
Eric
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
On XC with the heard, momma is sucking O2 off the O2D2 and it can be a challenge keeping the riff raff on canulas. She rides port side center row and the D2 is mounted on the front of the concession stand(center console) so its easy to access. The others are on metered flow but honestly, they tend to take them off. Ive found around 15k pAlt its nappy time. Momma will slip them on so its flowing over their mouth.
They fall asleep in FL and wake up in the Bahamas. Wish I could do that.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.