New member but long time airline pilot looking to be first time aircraft owner-need advice!
I'm a 55 yo major airline captain with over 20,000 hours and looking to get a piper Navajo/chieftan. I flew them (500 hrs pic) over 30 years ago with ameriflight so I'm familiar plus my wife won't entertain a single engine plane. My issues are finding "current" information regarding financing, maintenance, upgrades (panther and avionics etc) and insurance. I'm only in the feasibility stage so just know I'm trying to educate myself to this sector of aviation. I did get in touch with an insurance broker and compared to what I'm seeing here I'm very confused. Because I have time in the PA-31 (that was a big help says the broker) I was told that after initial training (mandatory at a certified School) and an annual proficiency check (mandatory at a certified School) I could get insurance for maybe $10-15K annually? what I've seen here is substantially less for private pilots with only several hundred hours? What's the real story?
Thanks in advance
John
Comments
John,
The aviation insurance industry has raised rates and requirements on everything.
As an aviation insurance broker, below are a few things off the top of my head.
The market for old twins is difficult. A few companies will no longer quote piston twins over 30 years old.
Yes, some piston, cabin class twins can be insured for the right pilots at "reasonable" rates. But what premium is "reasonable"?
Your age, ratings and hours look good. (As long as you do not have any accidents, DUI's etc.) So the year and the price of the aircraft is probably what would drive a quote for you.
We have had Navajos insured from about $8K on up.
Initial ground and flight school is required and annual recurrent after that. You might get a company that allows school every two years.
That said, do not try and compare yourself to online quotes. Don't listen to the internet or hangar talk about aviation rates. Go get a good broker and have them get you an actual quote. Get the real numbers.
Good luck.
Scott Sky Smith
Thank you Scott Sky Smith for your response. I do not have any accidents, incidents, training failures or DUI's. I guess that brings up another question then. I was looking at $300-$400k range chieftains but I've seen that if you get a loaded plane you'll pay higher rates-obvious but on the other hand if you get a "deal" plane and then do a lot of upgrades you might be left with a situation where the insurance Company only insures what you paid for it and all the "upgrades" will not be covered should something happen. Again, this is what I've seen posted here but I have no concrete proof of that. I know, talk to a good broker to get this info!
Thanks for the insurance info!
Does anyone else know how or if you can avoid the "lock and Key" fellow and his astronomical prices if you want any of the panther or 4 bladed q-tip props and engine or Navajo gear door mods or does he have that all locked up?
John
John,
welcome to the forum!
Those "Mike Jones" remodels sure are nice - new paint and interior, and the best engines, props and avionics money can buy. More functionality, and probably better reliability than when it left the factory. But as you point out, you're gonna pay for all that fun. Given how close the $$ is getting (at 1.5M) to a King Air or TBM, wonder who the market actually is(?)
On the other hand, there are quite a few serviceable PA31s in the classifieds in the 300K range. I presently have 16,500 hours...less than you do...and am paying about 2K per 100K of hull on my twins. So I'd be surprised if you can't find one that insures for 6-7K, though like Sky says, your actual mileage will vary. You'll also want a mechanic with lots of Navajo experience so he's not learning on your plane, and a hangar big enough for the 41+ foot wingspan.
Bob
Would you consider a King Air instead? Well supported and can be had for a reasonable price. I see the nostalgia in your post, but what I’m reading screams King Air.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
Thanks Bob and Unit74!
I guess it is what it is with the insurance. There are definitely many moving parts to this and finding a suitable hangar is one of them. Yes, those Mike Jones Navajos are B-E-A-utiful no doubt but I'm not paying those numbers. I am hoping in time to get those avionics if I can find the right bird-I've seen several that have old avionics but have the panther mod and the 4 bladed q-tip props that also kept the counter rotating configuration, which I prefer, to making a CR chieftain conventional as MJ does.
As for nostalgia, not really Unit74, it came down to insurance cost-it's apparently cheaper for me since I have time in it vs the C-340 I was originally looking at for a cabin class plus pressurization that I've never flown but I'm over the pressurization aspect now. Not to mention the cost of overhauling a PT6 since the only reasonably priced king air is one with engines needing overhaul-I looked since I have time in B-99's!
What twins do you have or had Bob? I'm confused about knowing what autopilot works with what systems on these PA-31's. I've read that original autopilots were analog so the new digital ones won't work or some have a middle man so to speak to make it work. But then I think I've seen that fancy new Garmin autopilot approved for the chieftain but what I don't know is what does it take to make it actually work and these are some of the things I'm trying to figure out ahead of time to determine the feasibility of this endeavor.
Thanks Again guys and any other input, thoughts or ideas are greatly appreciated!
John
There is a guy near me who owns a Navajo. As of a few months ago, he was no longer flying, I believe, due to health. He owns 3-4 planes. I know nothing about the plane and can try to get his info for you if you are genuinely serious about buying. But he is a real, um, character, to put it politely.
I own and fly a 79 PA32RT-300T. Previous aircraft are a 79 Archer and 76 Arrow.
I'll take his info if you can get it-thanks for the heads up and thanks for being willing to help Unit74!!
I have a Seneca PA34-220T and my insurance is about 2k per 100k like Bob. I have much less experience vs you and I have no annual training requirements.
I would think if it primarily is your wife and you and you wanted a twin the Seneca would be a great choice.
I have owned a PA-28, SR22, Cessna 421C, Cessna 310Q, RV10, and now a Seneca III. The 421C was fun until the money runs out!, The SR22 was also fun but limited useful load, The 310Q was good but back seats hard to get too. The Seneca is perfect for two people that want to take practically anything or 4 people and baggage for a week.
I think it is an excellent balance of speed, performance, cost and operating costs. It is also not so big you cannot get it into uncontrolled fields with no FBO and park it in a typical small field spot with manual ground handling. (one if it is level and two people if there is any slope).
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
Thanks Eric for the info & you've had quite the ownership experience and counting! The plan is for mostly 4 adults and possibly more depending on how many of the adult kids can make trips plus baggage (ski's etc) so I definitely want to have useful load options hence the chieftain but I'm not opposed to considering all options so thanks again!
With all the planes you've owned, have you found it better to get a plane that's upgraded (higher initial cost) and higher insurance cost as well or get a low priced gem that you upgrade to your liking while having a lower insurance cost based on the hull value when purchased? I only ask because I've seen posts where people state that the upgrades they did (new engines, paint, avionics etc) never got factored in to insurance coverage should something happen to said aircraft after the upgrades?
Thanks for you help!
John
My sense is that A/C improvements abide by the "swimming pool," rule. Topic is fresh in my head as my father-in-law has been complaining that not only will prospective buyers not tolerate a 50K higher price on my wife's childhood home due to the in-ground pool, they actually demanded the pool be filled in before submitting an offer! Same holds true with airplanes: you're much better off to find one for sale with the improvements you want since the sale price will usually only reflect about 50% of the cost to improve. Moreover, getting all those new engines and avionics to work properly often takes months of downtime, and multiple trips back to the shop to get the maintenance-induced squawks fixed.
Insurance is a different matter. My sense is you can, within reason, insure to whatever hull valuation you like, understanding that should you experience a loss, insurance liability will be capped at that value. I've never had an insurance company ask for an appraisal on my planes, though they might if they thought I was exaggerating in preparation for a future claim. You could, for example, insurance a recently overhauled Navajo P for 200K. But if it were stolen your payout wouldn't even replace the avionics, never mind the rest of your investment. By this rationale it doesn't really matter if upgrades are made before or after your purchase, it's just a question of valuation.
Bob
Adding to Bob's comments. I would prioritize an actively flying plane with mid time engines, decent paint/interior and a panel that has ADS-B and any must haves.
Fancy panels depreciate rapidly and in the end it is the nut behind the yoke that needs to fly it...
Someone gave me excellent advice (that I ignored) that you should be able to gather together a pile of money equal to an engine overhaul, burn it to the ground, and not worry about having to sell the house, put off retirement, etc.
I have had decent access to mechanics open to owner assist work so I have "rescued" some planes - worked out about half the time...
Your mechanic is going to be a big factor in enjoying your plane. I would get this locked up first. Not all of the independent IA's/shops will want to deal with something as big as a Chieftain. The jet focused shops will likely put you on the backburner and usually take a jet maint approach so this could easily be 10's of thousands per year for what seems like routine maint.
When I was flying the 421C we had young kids and were often flying 4 adults/4 kids on ~ 1-2 hr flights to the San Juans, Bend, Yellowstone, Sonoma, etc. We were doing this as frequent as every other weekend... Now that the kids are older? Forget it, maybe twice a year we would get the stars aligned for a big crowd like that (and would be over gross with 8) It would not be a good choice today for my missions. The Seneca works well as usually just 1-2 and sometimes 4. Only once did we have 5. I have even taken out the back seats as not needed.
I think ski trips are one of the harder trips to make in GA as often you are dealing with weather issues - including frost, etc at airports where services like de-ice are expensive or not available. Generally everyone has a tight window and you can get cornered into making bad decisions.
I recall in the 421C in Sonoma we had another family along that told me the morning of departure that they needed to be back as they were a driver for Girl Scout thing. At the airport it was socked in and I refused to depart until the airport was not below IFR minimums (actually waited until VFR). They were mad that a PC-12 was departing (taxiing very slow because they could not see the taxi markers). I told them if they really wanted to leave they should have talked to the PC-12 pilot...
The challenge with a big plane and a big crowd is you are running a wildly unprofitable airline with almost all the pressures of a real airline but none of the support staff nor revenue. While they are on bottle two or the last ski run of the day you are checking weather, pre-flighting, arraigning fuel, co-ordinating unexpected maint, etc. You have everything ready to go at 4 pm and they show up at 7... Now you are in the weather you planned to miss - or what was a day flight is now night, etc. Anything beyond 4 people is like this in my experience.... or maybe I just fly clowns around??? It is lifestyles of the rich and famous - for them!
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
Thanks Bob and Eric for your valuable insights and experience in these situations where I have none in the GA world-much appreciated. With the input I'm receiving here, coupled with my ongoing research I'm definitely starting to get a sense of direction of where I need to focus my attention in this process. I'll be honest, it's starting to feel like somewhat of an insurmountable task but then I see how many people are able to do this and I get excited again! The good thing is I'm not on "got to have it now" timeframe or mentality so I'll trod along and keep gathering info.
If anyone has more insights or things to consider, please chime in!
Thank you all
John
Hi John,
Welcome!
My name is George and I’m a retired United Airlines Captain here in the Cleveland Ohio area. I retired a few years ago off the 737 in CLE.
Just like you as I neared 65 I looked for something to fly post retirement.
Long story, we could talk non stop about all this from LAX to HNL, but I’ll try and keep it short and to the point and help answer some of your questions, from a front row seat.
I’m the very happy owner of a new to me 1981 Piper Seneca PA-34-220T. I’ve had it for going on 3 years now. That’s about the same amount of time I’ve been a member of this Forum. About the Piper Owners Forum, I can’t say enough good stuff about Scott and this group. They have collectively helped me on numerous occasions providing valued information on numerous topics, Mr. Eric being one, Thank You Eric!
OK, let’s begin…
Like you I have a sweet spot in my heart for Piper airplanes, having learned in one in the early 70’s then went off to the Air Force.
I was gonna be happy buying a Piper Arrow and flying me and my fiancé all over the map. A discussion one day about a Bahamas trip drew a question from her about “the water and only one motor” and “what if it quits”. We then went on to discuss the distance between FLL and Freeport, the Driftdown capabilities of the PA-28 and the Life Vests and Life Raft we would be carrying onboard. The next day I began looking for a Twin, or I’d be looking for a new Girlfriend! 😜
My search took me to Controller, Barnstormer and local airports.
I looked at everything from Twin Commanders and 340’s to Navajos like you, even a Cessna Skymaster!
My Insurance Broker, Falcon Insurance out of Kerrville Tx, wrote up numerous quotes all in the $8-10,000 price range. That’s with 35,000 hrs TT. I’ve since found out TT is not all that important, MM or Make and Model is.
Another thing was the Initial and Recurrent Training, as a Line Pilot you know all about that! Only thing now is YOU gotta pay for it! School was gonna be 3 Days and about $3000. Now depending where you live, you can walk there or non rev and spend another 3 days on the road. Not a big deal, but still a deal and it’s every year.
Hanger…. You touched on that. The Navajo wingspan looks like 40’ 8”. My Condo Hanger is big at 45’ x45’, most are a bit smaller. The PA-31 would be a very tight fit, even with my AirTug.
Shop rates here at my FBO are north of $105 an hour. Flat rate Annual for a PA-31 is about 60 hours or about $6500.
TSIO-540’s burn about 15+gph each I think, you’d know more. 100LL is $6.75 here.
But, I hear you… you got 500 hours in one, it’s a Cabin Class, looks sharp and goes pretty fast. And you are a Rich Airline Pilot, so why not!? 😜
Controller does have a host of Navajo’s, I’ve not really looked in awhile but I’d recommend not going “cheap”. That will bring Problems… Good Paint & Interior, Mid Time Engines, nice Avionics with a Garmin 750 will fit into most Flight Plans. Going into it with “I’ll upgrade after I buy” has gotten guys grounded in Avionics Shops here for months.
OK, other guys on here mentioned the Seneca also…I second that! While it may not be a true Cabin Class it does have a very nice and fairly roomy Club Seat Cabin with a Cabin Door, a “Galley” and is easy in and out. Kinda tight for 4 adults but an easy fit for 2 or for 4 kids. No Twin is gonna give you full load AND full fuel, compromise is a constant W&B consideration.
So…
Hope that helps John, all my opinion, very subjective and YMMV…. Just my view out the L1 Windshield!
There is ALOT of talent here, I’m sure these guys will be happy help as you navigate toward that “perfect airplane” for you and your family!
Stay Safe, Fly Fun!
Best Regards,
George
PA-34 N8434M KLPR
Thanks George, your insight & thoughts are very helpful! I too am a UAL pilot-small world! You all are definitely giving me some good intel to consider. I just spoke with a fellow UAL captain I just happened to see in a video for a Garmin autopilot he was getting installed in his Baron 58 and like you George he had some great advice. I might just have to go back to the drawing board and rethink my plan with all this real world information I have now and see what makes the most sense.
Thank you for sharing such good information! Great looking bird btw!
John
Where are you based John? Would be happy to meet up with you and fly.
Eric
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
I'm LAX based and I'm close to Camarillo (KCMA) or Van Nuys (KVNY) Do you ever venture down my way? I could also find time to come up your way as well. let me know and thanks for the offer-that would be great!
John
Hi John,
I am up in Portland, Oregon and usually stay up in the NW. You are welcome to come up and I am sure we can find a member with a twin close to you as well!
Eric
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
John,
have you ever considered a Twin Comanche? If it’s just you and your wife these are much more economical to buy and operate. Great little airplane too! Fast, low fuel burn, dependable motors.
Thanks Eric, let me check my schedule over the coming weeks and see if I can get myself up your way. I have time off first week of October but I already have travel plans. I'll get back to you on that.
As for your question "Cartertims" I'm open to everything now but there are some significant reasons (beyond the fact I have chieftain time) like I want to be able to visit my first and only grandchild more often. My son & his wife and new baby (they are both airline pilots as well so I assume they'll be on board with being in a light twin) I want to be able to fly to see them on a whim more often. My daughter lives there as well and counting my wife that could be 7 of us with my daughters boyfriend if we picked them up and went somewhere together. thats the hope at this time. Obviously it wont be as frequent as I'm envisioning but it's desire.
Thanks,
John
John,
I am a hobby pilot and own a 1972 Navajo PA-31-310. Above are many truths. A few points I know about a Navajo...
Mike Jones has the best fixed up Navajos. His latest Chieftain was appraised at 1.725M on VRef. See 5:46
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfdfDvcyjeI&ab_channel=AviationConsumermagazine
No other Navajo on the market has been completely "fixed up". All have a mishmash of upgrades, paint, avionics, ADs, engines, interior. Find a "gem in the rough" and then add what Mike Jones does for some savings and spreading the cost over upgrades at down time expense. New Engines are $160,000 a piece, I spent $360,000 on wiring and Garmin upgrades. A good paint job is $75,000 minimum. Good interior replacement is $100,000.
Hangars to store the aircraft can be had in community hangars in the Portland, OR area for $2000/month. You can't do your own maintenance in those arrangements, its just storage. Dimension are 40'8" X 34'7.5" X 13, 2ft shorter for -310 and -325 short Navajos. Finding a hangar that will fit and allow work is hard but $3000/month. Owning a hangar that will fit is also almost impossible in our area.
There are 80 ADs and 316 service bulletins for Navajos. My last AD for bulkhead correction was $40,000. Some ADs not documented in logs should be identified prior to purchase and priced accordingly. Some ADs allow inspections until a future time, then AD compliance can be huge expense. I am inspecting elevators. Elevator spar replacement or elevator replacement required in future.
Everything rubber is about to break. Deice regulator diaphragm last boot pop, $2000. Let airplane down off jacks, oleo strut seals blew. Lots of hoses, hydraulic, fuel, deice, etc. all are about to leak. Motor mounts not touched for years. Compliance with prop TBO hours not usually a problem for many aircraft for sale but most are not in compliance with calendar time overhauls. Fuel bladders seem to be a neglected item in for sale aircraft, $20,000 material cost. Deice boots, another $15,000 material cost.
Air-conditioning cowl motor, $2100. Air-conditioning blower motor and housing, no longer available. To fix some things differently you need FAA approval, 337.
Insurance is a joke. Unless a "lock and key" mike jones aircraft, hull value max is south of $300K. This results in "hull self insurance" with some liability coverage. $10,000 annually should do it for most.
I wanted a Navajo. I love my Navajo. I love to work on my Navajo. I do supervised work, and hunt parts. When I do fly, the machine is a dream and passengers are comfortable. All this for dollars. My jet and turbine friends dont think about costs the same, when the citation, or King Air needs work it just gets done and the invoice doesn't effect their lives in any noticeable way, they dont work on their airplanes. TBM, Pilatus drivers wouldn't ever consider a Navajo. Different games. You just have to figure out what game you are in.
PA-31
KHIO
Garmin Everything
John,
You should come up to KHIO and hang out with mdsport and I. ;) I have the Seneca and he has the Navajo.
when I was doing owner assist annuals on the 421C my expenses were very similar to the Navajo. My last owner assist annual on the Seneca was ~ $3200+ oil, etc and my insurance is about the same.
It sounds like you are flying to your son his wife, new baby + your daughter and then thinking of flying from there somewhere fun. Personally, I would just plan on flying your wife and you there and then having fun locally with the grandkid. Flying a newborn is tough unpressurized and often the plane is loud. Most new parents I know dream of the grandparents showing up and helping with the baby so they can escape for a bit!
In something like the Seneca you could take 4 adults and and a baby/child with lots of flexibility.
The more people involved the more pressure to hit timelines. If it is just you and your wife flying to see the grandkid you have fantastic flexibility and this would be a great match for general aviation.
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
John,
I have 1978 Chieftain and while many of the things others have said are true my experience has been that the Navajo is no more or less expensive than owning any other large piston twin. If anything I think my cost’s have been a little less than my friends 310R. In my opinion it is certainly less than owning a 421/414 or other pressurized piston twin in terms of maintenance and insurance. The Navajo is also fairly easy to work on and while a few parts can be hard/expensive to find most used/overhauled parts are fairly abundant and not insanely priced compared to some of the things I’ve seen on other fleet types.
The AD part of the Navajo is a big one and has the potential to really hurt the wallet. The 2 biggest ones that you need to be mindful of are the 2016 & 2017 AD on the tail bulkheads, you have 300hrs to permanently comply with the AD. Mike Jones quotes around 17K to do them both at the same time assuming no corrosion issues. This is about the only reason I would ever consider taking my plane there, he’s just done so many of them that they kinda have it down to a science. Beyond that his shop is very similar to TAS in the twin Cessna world where they basically look at every airplane as a complete “collector car” type restoration project. If you have the money it’s awesome but by no means is it required to safely operate these airplanes.
The Navajo is an absolute joy to fly if you have a large group of people and pressurization isn’t required. Get a good engine monitor with GAMI injectors and you’ll be blown away with the performance and rage you can achieve operating LOP. Yes it’s a controversial topic but it really shouldn’t be and the procedure is specifically allowed in the Chieftain POH.
Best of luck in your search, there’s noting really cheap about owning these big birds but damn if they sure aren’t allot of fun!
Thanks Mdsport for your insights!
This is when I feel like it's not doable-a laundry list of all the things that scream no and the $$$ that go with it but then the pics of family and friends and kids that screams this is the best decision ever all in the same message? I definitely want and need the truths before embarking on this endeavor but unless I'm reading your message wrong, it appears you are definitely steering me away from a Navajo? The pictures however tell the opposite story? You are doing exactly what I want to do in those pics. Looks wonderful and clearly you are doing it. I'm not a trust fund baby, I work hard (UAL Capt) make good $ but I live in southern cal, very expensive place to own a home so I'm not sitting on piles of cash that would seem to be the only way to be an aircraft owner? There must be more to aircraft owning than just constantly forking out ($40k-$300k a pop after purchase price) on an airplane for parts, upgrades, overhauls and AD's for anyone to justify doing it otherwise it tells me every aircraft owner is a fool and just throwing $ away. Can you help me to understand how and why you have been able to justify the cost of owning your Navajo?
Great Navajo and avionics set up btw!
Thanks,
John
Yes Eric, with the two of you up there I do want to come up. Still working on my schedule but I'll let you know.
John
Hello Midwestflyer07, thank you for your insights as well. I love what Mike Jones does for Navajos but that kind of $ idk who has? I actually spoke with him and basically it sounded to me if you took a Navajo to him for literally anything, he won't give it back to you until (in his words "everything is perfect") and it's like his other $1.4 mil and up navajos for sale-meaning he's going to get (his words again "a $200k annual" to start) A little scary to me.
I've been researching like crazy and I'm starting to realize a lot of owners are doing supervised annuals etc and that concerns me only because I'm sure we all want to save money but I can see how big ticket items are likely not getting done or not done properly and yet it's being advertised with "fresh annual"!
It feels like if you aren't already super savvy to the purchase process AND don't already have a mechanic you trust AND extremely versed in the AD and service bulletins associated with the aircraft of choice then you're already doomed. What's a want to be first time aircraft owner to do?
Thanks,
John
John,
I have no justification for flying or owning a Navajo. Just the sheer enjoyment. Entertainment costs money. If I had 5M to spend on airplanes, I would not have a Navajo. If I had $100K, I would not have a Navajo. Everyone has financial constraints and decisions to make. My wife of 33years has flown with me in a small airplane a total of 6 times in her life, not her thing. I rented a Cessna 310 for 15 years, to go for dinner when I couldn't afford an airplane. The Navajo is my first and probably only airplane. I just like it, it makes me happy. I'll keep it until I can't afford it.
empannin said it..."The 421C was fun until the money runs out!"
Midwestflyer07 said it..."Best of luck in your search, there’s nothing really cheap about owning these big birds but damn if they sure aren’t a lot of fun!"
PA-31
KHIO
Garmin Everything
Thanks again Mdsport.
I'm aware this is costly "hobby" and I'm sure your previous message was meant to convey just how costly it can be. It just happened to come across to me like it isn't worth it because of xyz. Looking at it the way you spell it out definitely makes me question wether this is feasible or not for me. What you have in terms of your particular Navajo and how you're using it is what I'm looking to do. I have to keep researching and looking for ways to stockpile lots of $$$ to make this a reality.
Thanks again and hopefully I can make it up to see you and Eric soon.
John
Sure thing
I’ll be happy to show you around my “operation” anytime if you can make it up. I’m sure Eric can show you his as well. Just let us know. Twins are awesome unless you were counting on only one baby!
😀
PA-31
KHIO
Garmin Everything
Haha, true words😜
I'll keep you guys posted.