Turbo V band clamp AD
I’m trying to locate a turbo V band clamp for my Saratoga turbo to meet the AD requirements effective 7/17/23. My mechanic can not sign off my annual until mine is replaced per the AD and he cannot locate one. Basically I’m grounded unless we can locate one. Eaton Aerospace is the manufacturer, part #69861-377. If anyone knows of a distributor that currently has one please let me know. My mechanic has been told there is a 18 month backlog so I’m real concerned I would be able to meet my upcoming Angel flight obligations. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Comments
Two are allegedly available in Canada:
https://www.controller.com/parts/search?PartNumber=556108
Might also call Eaton or Boeing (Boeing lists the part number in their online catalog) to see if there is an alternate part number.
Hi, I placed one on order for my TSIO-360 and was told it will be here this summer so I'm not sure who's lead time info is correct. In the short term, can they be repaired (welded)? Can you get a used one from a bone yard?
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Thanks so much. I’ll give it a try. One distributor said they were back ordered 18 months.
I’ve called the two Canadian companies (Acorn Welding, Aviation Unlimited) both said the v clamps won’t be available until June 2025. Anyone else in this same situation? Will FAA accept a welded clamp or recently bought the clamp #69861-377?
Reading the AD, there is a ticking time bomb in it.... If your existing clamp is more than 500 hrs TIS since new then you must replace it - or you can extend for another two years by inspecting every 6 months. This means sometime in ~ 2025 all v-band clamps would need to be replaced per AD.
Since they cannot meet demand today and have not fixed their supply chain issues in a year does not bode well for prospects for flying in a year or so.
"(2) As an alternative to initially removing the v-band coupling from service as required by paragraph (i)(1) of this AD, you may perform the inspections required by paragraphs (k)(1) through (7) or (l) of this AD. Do the initial inspections at the time the v-band coupling would have been removed from service and thereafter at intervals not to exceed 6 months or 100 hours TIS, whichever occurs first, for a period not to exceed 2 years after the effective date of this AD. If the v-band coupling fails to meet any inspection criteria in paragraphs (k)(1) through (7) or (l) of this AD, it must be removed from service before further flight. Removing the v-band coupling from service and installing a new v-band coupling does not terminate the requirement to do these repetitive inspections."
Here is a 95 page report that is the basis for the AD.
https://www.gajsc.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Final-Report-BPG-ACS_013018.pdf
You can see in the appendix that there is no record of any piper aircraft with a TSIO-360 ever having an issue. Most of the issues are with IO-540, 550 and 520's with much larger exhaust outlets. Only the M20K pops up a couple of times.
They expect to save 12 deaths by implementing this AD over the next 20 years despite no deaths outside of the Cessna 400 series that has some unique risks.
I think they are going to kill more pilots than they will ever save as the risks seem low, the costs are high, and the possibility of rusty pilots with new v-bands arriving months (years?) late having accidents is real. The money wasted here is better spent on training and currency.
A Seneca III has the identical v-band clamp on both the output from the turbo to the tailpipe as well as the wye to the turbo. The AD is explicit and only applies to the turbo to tailpipe v-band. So, per AD, you don't need to inspect the other one at all. If you took both off and one passed and the other failed you could put the passing one on the turbo to tailpipe flange and be compliant to the AD as there is no requirement for the other one. Obviously this may not be the best idea...
The out of stock price 653332 is around $500 and the ebay price is $799. Rajay used to sell this part for ~$75 ...
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
Saw on another board that Eaton the company that was manufacturing them, moved their operations to Tiajuana and the move hasn’t gone well. Not sure why they chose this time to move or what the problems are. FAA red tape prevents any other company from picking up the slack.
Cessna moved the fiberglass Columbia from Bend to Mexico and messed up the fiberglass lamination for the spars. The 400 series never recovered and Cirrus owns the market.
There is nothing complicated or exotic about this clamp. It is a bolt, nut, a bunch of spot welds and formed metal. Similar clamps for automotive turbo applications are $12.99. We are paying an enormous premium for Eaton or whoever to save even more money by moving operations out of the US while using the scarcity in parts to charge even more for them. I think any AD should require a commitment from the parts supplier for short/long term availability of the part and fixed cost.
It also calls into question the independence of the committee that made the sweeping recommendation driving all of these costs and delays....
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
I had the same thoughts about interchangeability with automotive (actually, diesel) and that when either the FAA or manufacturer does a potentially fleet-grounding event over what should be a simple part swap, it should come with a requirement of a ready supply of parts.
But the the skeptic in me is wondering whether this is just a basic maneuver to try and force obsolescence of old planes and require an economic stimulus by way of purchasing a new plane. Hmmmm...
Just completed my annual on the twin and my mechanic and I searched high and low in the records to find a reference for the replacement of the clamps. The exhaust system was sent out ~ 300 hrs ago and the clamps look new - passed the AD with flying colors. Unfortunately, we could not find a record so we needed to start the clock on them. Every 6 months they need to be inspected and this can be done up for up to 2 years and then they must be discarded.
I will likely need to join the waitlist queue even though I don't need immediately because the waitlists are reaching 12 months+.
My take is a committee with good intentions went too far with this broad AD and the only upside is for the makers of the clamps
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
So I take it you are not going to use the Amazon clamps you were touting?? LOL
carl
48 yrs A/P IA DAL aircraft inspector. 172N
Carl, Maybe in two years. ;) I would want to spend at least 17.99 on them though as 12.99 seems on the low side.
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
I ordered one last April (2023). It missed est delivery of Nov 23. Now expected 15 May 24
Ya, the lack of parts for this issue is way out of the range of normalcy. Its not like these hi temp clamps are not being manufactured any more,,, there are hundreds of them on each Airbus and Boeing planes. ( and engines) . Just not really passing a reason test.
carl
48 yrs A/P IA DAL aircraft inspector. 172N
And probably millions in the automotive world.
I purchased one in February and am on a waiting list. I've been told that I will be in the first month of delivery, whenever that is. In the meantime, inspections and inspections.... Stay safe everyone!
Scott Sherer
Wright Brothers Master Pilot, FAA Commercial Pilot
Anyone seen any movement on v-clamps becoming available?
Ben
I need the 653332 clamp for the turbo arrow. I'm still under the inspection, but once that runs out all of us will be grounded. Should I get the plane on the market now and hope a buyer will bite? Or just let the AD run out and we all have planes we can't fly or sell. I've been on the wait list since the AD came out, so I don't believe any projected ship dates. Are any of our piper groups contacting the FAA on our behalf, to get an extension of the inspection time period?
I have sent the following letter to the FAA, to the address noted in the AD, and will inform our members of any reply:
*************************************************
I am writing at this time on behalf of the Piper Owner and Cessna Owner groups hosted by JP Media, LLC, publishers of Piper Owner and Cessna Owner magazines. As Aviation Director for both pilot groups, I have noticed an increasing number of concerns in our forums regarding the complete absence of any qualifying replacement parts to satisfy the requirements of AD 2023-09-09 i.e. V-Band Clamps. We have members waiting more than 1 year for replacement parts and, understandably, they are getting quite concerned that as of July 17, 2025, their aircraft will be grounded, possibly along with hundreds of others, for lack of replacement parts. For some members, the 500 hour limit may also be approaching and no replacement parts or procedures, as specified in the AD, are available.
If your office has information that addresses this situation, I could disseminate this information to our membership in an effort to keep everyone informed.
Looking forward to a response on behalf of our members nation wide,
Sincerely,
Michael Jay Jones
Aviation Director
Piper and Cessna Owner Organizations
JP Media LLC
Thanks for that.
Found clamps, this place had 48 of them in stock as of a few days ago but I know many have been buying them up. They are not 8130, but a Form 1 from Canada. According to everything I've researched a Form 1 & 8130 are reciprocal. This is for the Turbo arrow clamp.
AZturboarrow, thank you for the follow-up. I have yet to receive any response to my inquiry with the FAA. Glad your immediate issue is solved! I wonder if they incorporate any of the mitigation strategies outlined in the working group document.
Regards,
Mike
What "mitigation strategies"? Is there AMOC in progress that may help?
Not that I am aware of. The AD references a working group who extensively studied the failure modes of the clamp and made reference to manufacturing methods that might be causing the issues such as embrittlement at the weld site. So perhaps with a detailed knowledge of why the fractures are occurring, these issues could be mitigated with knowledge of these manufacturing issues. I was wondering if any methods of manufacture were incorporated in the currently available products to eliminate future problems.
Hi All,
Quick update on the V Clamp required in AD 2023-0909 on the Turbo V Band Coupling PN 653332…
Some of us will be coming up on the 500 hr TIS, me included on my Seneca. So I called the Aero Mach Company AZ was kind enough to post the other day. Thank You AZ!
I spoke with Mr Marvin and have 2 headed my way via UPS.
I asked Marvin about the Backorder issue many Piper Owners are having with this part. He mentioned there is some confusion on this part based on a different, but suitable sub, PN. He has had this part in stock for awhile now.
RAM published a SB stating that PN 24540-300 is approved to replace PN 653332.
My IA looked all this over and concurred, ordering some for his Shop.
Marvin says he has over 100 in Stock. They do run $510 each. He says they are New and are the “Spot Welded” type.
Attached is the supporting RAM document.
I’ll update when the parts come in…
I know this has been an issue for Piper Pilots for awhile now, hope this helps! Thanks again AZ! 👍
Stay Safe, Fly Fun!
George
N8434M KLPR
George, Save your old clamps as the wye to turbo clamp is not subject to the AD. Could be a serviceable replacement.
Thanks for sharing what you found out.
Eric
Eric Panning
1981 Seneca III
Hillsboro, OR (KHIO)
Hi Eric et al,
Thank You Eric, Yes! I’ll do that! Good idea!
You are exactly correct as only the V Clamps subjected to this particular AD are on the exhaust side of the turbocharger, not the inlet. So far mine have been inspected and checked good twice now, but the July 2025 date is coming fast. In doing a little research on this it turns out that the Spot Welds are failing, but it may be from only a small batch of V Clamps produced years ago. I’m sure MikeJJ will have more for us soon!
Eric, while I got you, on a different, but Seneca related topic…
I recently received a few love notes from Piper concerning a new SL & SB
The airplane has had the Truss to Spar AD C/W years ago and subsequent Annuals have shown no additional damage, and the Walkway has no “sponginess” to it. The Spar SB talks about Eddy Current NDI, any thoughts you might have about these two deals??
Thanks in Advance!
Stay Safe, Fly Fun,
George
N8434M KLPR
If we use the RAM 2177-300 as a replacement per the SB, do we have to file an AMOC document? Or does a simple log entry suffice?
Submitting an amoc to the FAa is not automatic approval. While it's possible for your local FAA office may be able to approve it within a reasonable amount of time most likely they would have to send it through their engineering groups. And you can imagine how much time that's going to take. More than likely they going to look at it ( your submission) from the point that parts have started coming into the pipeline so they're not going to stick their neck out and do a additional paperwork for a one-off deal. Carl
48 yrs A/P IA DAL aircraft inspector. 172N
So does that mean the 24540-300 clamp above can’t be used without AMOC approval? And your comment about parts in the pipeline is incorrect- I ordered mine July 2023. Last weeks discussion with Boeing and they are nowhere near shipping. They have hundreds of back orders on those.
Well rayjay has the clamps that we need for the turbo Saratoga with the Ray J's on it so parts are in the pipeline and some people are getting clamp's apparently from RAM as a approved replacement.. so in a nutshell any clamp you get needs to be the OEM part or the approved substitute for the OEM part. As mentioned you might get your local FAA office to approve it but I would definitely not count on that and you can't ask your mechanic to put on a non-approved part while you're waiting for an amoc which could take quite a while. Carl
48 yrs A/P IA DAL aircraft inspector. 172N